How to deal with Police when out photographing (& Photographers Rights)

[Kym]

Not strictly photography but it hits the underlying issues around photography in public. A very good article.

http://www.news.com.au/opinion/miran...-1225944489870

Miranda Devine asks: Why are all men made to feel like fiends?

ONE sunny morning last week a 55-year-old advertising executive and father was walking to work on Sydney's North Shore when he came across a toddler wandering by himself just 10m from busy Military Rd (in North Sydney), no guardian in sight.

"Where's your mummy," he asked the small boy, who didn't respond and kept walking towards the dangerous thoroughfare.

Against his instinct, the man did not pick up the boy, for fear of being accused of being a paedophile abductor.

Instead, as the child kept moving towards danger, he called to a lady in a nearby shop to ask if the boy was hers. She ran outside and chased the toddler down.

In the commotion the mother emerged from a nearby shop, apparently unperturbed.

But the man was angry.

"What would have got her upset is if I had picked the boy up when I saw him, which was my first instinct," he said.

"If the child had walked on to Military Rd and been killed I would have had to wear the guilt for life. Men have been reduced to [failing to react] when they see a child in danger for fear of being labelled paedophiles."

In 100 different ways every day the same scenario is played out, reflecting a profound and largely unspoken shift in the way decent men view small children.

These are just ordinary men, fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles, who have been made to feel like criminals around children and obliged to suppress their natural, healthy instinct to protect the most vulnerable members of our society.

In the same way, you can understand why men using the change rooms at a public swimming pool in a northern Sydney suburb last week might be concerned about the presence of unsupervised young boys undressing nearby.

Afraid of being falsely accused of being paedophiles, several men complained to pool management that they felt uncomfortable undressing in front of the schoolboys, in an increasingly febrile atmosphere in which even the mildest accusation of sexual impropriety can be ruinous

So the boys were banned from the change rooms of the Hornsby Aquatic Centre and reportedly had to ride back on the bus to school in wet swimsuits.

<snip> Read more:http://www.news.com.au/opinion/miran...-1225944489870

[rellik666]

What a sad world.

The minority and very small at that spoil it for the many!

Roo

[Benicio]

http://www.news.com.au/opinion/miran...-1225944489870

Very relevant to this conversation.

I assisted a crying lost little boy into a shop to find his Mum and as I was leading him to the shop my friend barked out "Dont touch him!"
It didnt occur to me that someone looking in from the outside would draw a negative conclusion like that until my friend pointed it out. I got quite paranoid after that.
It's scary the direction Aus is taking.

[Ionica]

Very relevant to this conversation.

I assisted a crying lost little boy into a shop to find his Mum and as I was leading him to the shop my friend barked out "Dont touch him!"
It didnt occur to me that someone looking in from the outside would draw a negative conclusion like that until my friend pointed it out. I got quite paranoid after that.
It's scary the direction Aus is taking.

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago, in the local supermarket. A small boy (pre-school age ) was wandering around alone , crying and very upset, but ignored by the staff and other shoppers. In the end I took his hand and walked him along for a minute or so until we found his mother. When I returned home, I told my wife about it, and how I had reservations about helping, due to the suspicion I felt I would automatically come under.

[Scotty72]

Perhaps there should be a thread "How cops should deal with photographers."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1225945264997

[james derek]

I'll second that Scotty

[james derek]

The policewomen in the 'incident' in Kings Cross obviously didn't pass the attitude test.
So how do you 'deal' with an abusive /aggressive policewoman with a bad attitude blatantly abusing the public?

[Stingray]

very interesting post nick, and nice replies, makes very interesting reading.
Myself, I have only really been approached by police once whilst taking photographs,
and that was of a storm, whilst parked in a darkened section (lol), overlooking moreton bay, trying for some lightning over brisbane port, from clontaf.
Afterwards, in hindsight i did think it might be looked at as suspicious (LOL). car parked in the dark, man "just out of sight beside car" - errie glow (LOL.. from laptop with radar page open)
But they were fine, just cruised past, stopped, reversed, parked beside me, then both got out to ask what I was doing.
I was happy to explain - and it didnt hurt that at that point as i said "trying for a lightning .. argh!" a very nice cloud to ground bolt went right thru where my POV was yet I hadnt clicked..LOL.. because i stood up to talk to them
i shows them some of the images i had already taken and they were happy, even asked if i posted them anywhere so they could check out my photos when they got home

[Ionica]

The policewomen in the 'incident' in Kings Cross obviously didn't pass the attitude test.
So how do you 'deal' with an abusive /aggressive policewoman with a bad attitude blatantly abusing the public?

It's interesting how the assault on a member of the public by the policewoman had been handled 'at a local level', and no disciplinary action was taken. If the situation was reversed, I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

[james derek]

Dear Ionica, You are sure the outcome would have been different. I can almost guarantee if you told the policewomen to " drop that taser or I'll smash it to the ground", and then shoved her in the chest, the commander would not tell you to 'handle it better'. You would be seeing 6 t0 12 months.
In 'how to deal with police', first you identify what you are dealing with.
What is a 'code red' and 'attitude test'. Are these in the police manual?
Are you dealing with a level playing field?
Does what your dealing with have double standards and scales of justice?
Is there any psychology involved?

Some insight in the problems with power abuse is seen in the Stanford prison experiment.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&so...TrAWvkz0auqTLQ

[james derek]

Dear Ionica,
I'm glad you found my post useful.
There is plenty of info on the net about Dr Phillip Zimbardo and his famous experiments.
The psychology of why that policewoman assaulted a citizen is explained by Dr Zimbardo in his seminars. Essentially , and i'll be brief here, it's about the anonymity of the uniform and not being personally accountable for bad behavior as long as you a part of a group that is only accountable to itself (and is a master of arse covering).

'Attitude test' is not about attitude or test, its about power to deviate from the 'manual' and do evil without accountability. ( i.e. to be a bully and go above the law )
Hierarchies with 'unwritten' terminology like 'attitude test' and 'code red' , is a prime example of sociopathy. Having a code where only one side can win because they have the power to be only accountable to themselves results in double standards and scales of justice. When a cop adopts the 'attitude fail' position, he/she has corrupted and compromised the legal system.

When you 'deal with police' ...... what are you really dealing with?

[Ionica]

I did read about these experiments some years ago, and found them interesting, disturbing, and thought- provoking. One attitude I don't respect is the Police ( admin., union ) insisting that accountability to an outside body would be bad for morale, and police should investigate police. It seems that in some instances police are not subject to the laws they enforce.

[james derek]

Hierarchies like police have been a law unto themselves since the first settlement. That 'bad for morale' BS is a pathetic argument indeed and they are only fooling themselves.
Implementing an 'Internal Affairs' department now would be almost impossible. The police here have had it so good for so long.
The police are a public service just like any other service to the community, like a bus driver or school teacher except the police are, as you say, not subject to the laws of the community at large.
The fact that police can cross lines and go beyond the law and not be accountable to the community is what makes 'dealing with police' somewhat complicated.
This is some advice i had from retired detective.
If approached by police and you are in 'photographer mode' , first you have to assess his/her demeanor.
#1 If they are polite and courteous then you can respond in the same manner but never give personal information.
#2 If they come at you like [Benjamin Price] or that lunatic police woman , do not respond in any form, simply drop to the ground and "make like you are unconscious " and wait for an ambulance.

I thought he was joking but he was dead serious.

If you are unlucky to get to #2, the reality is you just don't know what you are dealing with simply because the police can and do go above the law. When ( and if ) police adopt an unwritten code and act on it, they are just being spiteful and malicious. ...... power corrupts , absolute power absolutely corrupts. This why they say you will never win. Laws for the community do not apply to police and as such it is not a level playing field. i.e. corruption. Even as an assistant to a paralegal I have seen police statements and summary briefs that are entirely fabricated and used for spite and malice. ( I've also seen ARW , registrars and lawyers reports that have been fabricated )

Your rights:
You have the right to remain unconscious, anything you moan will be misconstrued and taken out of context and made to look like whatever they want. If you choose to stay unconscious, a lawyer will be appointed to you and he/she will lie to you to get as money out of you as he/she can.

A picture tells a thousand words, a photoshopped picture tells whatever you want.

[Chelle01]

A lot of good advice here and I think common sense prevails in most cases. Nice to know what you can and shouldn't do just the same :-)

[CraigPauli]

In my experiences showing respect when the Police start asking questions and being quick to offer to show them your pictures puts them to ease quicker then if you have a bad attitude.

[farmer_rob]

Since when is standing up for your rights a "bad attitude"?

[Redgum]

Since when is standing up for your rights a "bad attitude"?

Never!

[Longshots]

In my experiences showing respect when the Police start asking questions and being quick to offer to show them your pictures puts them to ease quicker then if you have a bad attitude.

Instead of quoting a section, I thought it worth repeating all of your words, as they're clearly being misunderstood.

You can stand up for your rights without losing a mutual respect for another individual/s doing they're job. Again, comes down to common sense and little bit of logic.

At the end of the day, the policeman (which is what this topic is about) is granted some powers, which are going to override any rights to freely photograph (which I strongly advocate), and if they instruct you to do something (ie move on) and you dont then I believe (and I'm no lawyer or legal eagle) that would be "obstruction", and that gives them the right to arrest you - probably the least palatable and very least likely option on your bucket list of things to do.

[CraigPauli]

Since when is standing up for your rights a "bad attitude"?

Wasn't saying that sticking up for your rights was bad attitude, but if a person starts mouthing off and swearing or highly aggressive that is.. You can stick up for your rights and be calm and polite. Just put yourself in their shows for a second, if you were responding to a call about some guy standing around taking photos etc and when you started to question them they responded in a calm professional manner would you not prefer that then if you had someone raise their voice start waving their arms about ,maybe swearing and going on about harrassment etc, which one would you most likely if you had a bad night etc want to take to the station and try book with some offence or another.

[Norman]

Found in SMH letters

http://www.smh.com.au/national/lette...skin=text-only

copied and pasted for your information/comment

''Snap judgment has no standing

I was interested to read about the harassment of professional photographers by ''uniformed goons'' (Letters, November 12). It is not only professionals who are so treated.

About 18 months ago, while taking a photograph of a streetscape outside a Westfield shopping centre at North Lakes, Queensland - with no individuals identifiable - I was approached by a ''uniformed goon'' who told me it was illegal to photograph any public building in Queensland. When I complained to Westfield management, I was assured there was such a law and that people had been ''hauled away'' for ignoring it.

I took the matter up with the Premier's Department and was hardly surprised to be told there was no such blanket ban. I referred the Premier's response to the local police.

I was subsequently advised that Westfield security had been apprised of the law and their limited authority to interfere with people going about their private lives. No apology from Westfield was forthcoming.

I wish the professionals luck.

Brian Jeffrey Cook (ACT)''

Cheers