Banning live stock export-

[farmer_rob]

within the few few minutes of the 4 corners clip we see where the problem is... and this is before we see the infamous slaughter house... it would seem that this is a country where refrigeration is not the norm.

damn third world countries! blow them all up... you would think that if they dont have a stun gun (and what abattoir in its right mind wouldnt hey!) they would at least get the cow drunk so it would be easy to handle and wouldnt feel anything....

We had a drunk cow once (it ate grape must - what is left over after pressing out the wine from a red wine fermentation) - it was not easy to handle. It couldn't stand up - it's legs kept going in all directions. It recovered after a day - water, hay and "bed rest" - but I don't know if it had a hangover!

[ving]

a quick search on the indonesian yellow pages finds that there arent 11 abattoirs working in that country... there are 36... with phone numbers (probably some remote ones without?)

I wonder if the 11 chosen were just the bad ones... i just wonder.
I guess it does make sense that if you want to show the indonesia doens treat the cattle right that you pick the 11 worst... but you get that when you have an agenda.

of course i am probably wrong, but i am just putting it out there

http://www.yellowpages.co.id/en/sear...op=Search#main

[Tannin]

Could be Ving. But to go in there and film, they had to get permission. Strikes me that the easiest ones to get permission to make films in would probably be the best ones, not the worst ones.

But it really doesn't matter: whether it's just these 11 or all 200-odd slaughterhouses in Indonesia, the torture has to stop. No ifs, no buts, we cannot tolerate deliberate torture of these animals. And in reality, there are probably some facilities over there that do it pretty well. All we need to do is find out which ones they are, document that, and restart exports to certified facilities only. If that proves impossible, then the Indonesians will just have to stop torturing cattle across the board - and that would be a very good outcome.

[geoffsta]

well... at least with the banning of cattle they can get back to their usual diet of, Dog, cat and monkey, with a bit of horse thrown in as well.
Toss the coin.

[Tannin]

Rob, let's not pretend that all cattle are suddenly unsaleable.

The reality is that Indonesia only accounts for a part of beef production. We ca still ship live cattle to many other parts of the world; we can consume the meat on the domestic market; or we can delay the sale of stock. None of these will account for all of the stock, but in combination they can do a lot.

I seldom eat meat, but I'll do my bit and put my hand up to buy a roast or two specially if farmers want to organise a one-off sale of some of the cattle they were going to export to be tortured to death. I reckon most Australians would do the same.

And the point is it doesn't matter if the people who were making money out of selling cattle to be tortured to death lose some money or not. That practice is simply unacceptable under any circumstances. We can't help the 100,00 animals in Indonesia. Short of going to war, there is nothing we can do about them. But we can make sure that the cruelty goes no further by stopping all exports of livestock until the Indonesians decide to join the human race and enforce basic civilised standards on their processing facilities. If they want to buy our meat - and they do, we know that - then they will do it.

[Scotty72]

It doesn't matter if the ABC visited:

a) the worst
b) the best (why did the others not allow them in? hiding something?)
c) random

slaughterhouses.

I am appalled at the torture of animals. And I am appalled at the Australians who knew it was happening but, to save their wallets, chose to ignore the suffering.

We can't let it continue just to save jobs... Cigarette companies employ people, they have shareholders etc. So, do we ignore the appalling loss of life just to keep these people in the money.

Indonesian people smugglers employ crew for their boats: why don't we ignore that trade so that the crews can have a livelihood?

However: Once each slaughterhouse is able to prove it is maintaining a very high standard then, as far as I am concerned, we can resume.

I feel most Australians feel this way. Of course, some extreme activists support every cause.

Scotty

[ving]

Could be Ving. But to go in there and film, they had to get permission. Strikes me that the easiest ones to get permission to make films in would probably be the best ones, not the worst ones.

But it really doesn't matter: whether it's just these 11 or all 200-odd slaughterhouses in Indonesia, the torture has to stop. No ifs, no buts, we cannot tolerate deliberate torture of these animals. And in reality, there are probably some facilities over there that do it pretty well. All we need to do is find out which ones they are, document that, and restart exports to certified facilities only. If that proves impossible, then the Indonesians will just have to stop torturing cattle across the board - and that would be a very good outcome.

true, torture needs to stop! I think a country wide ban is not the way to go... what if they specifically targeted the 11 bad ones and didnt bother with the 200 good ones just for the sake of a good story or to get thier agenda across? does the legal system here jail entire towns is one resident is found guilty of murder?

maybe a country wide abattoir study needs to be done, certification needs to be introduced? maybe we need to ban only those that are inhumane?

once again, just putting it out there.

...cause I'd hate to see those who are NOT doing wrong to suffer

[Scotty72]

true, torture needs to stop! I think a country wide ban is not the way to go... what if they specifically targeted the 11 bad ones and didnt bother with the 200 good ones just for the sake of a good story or to get thier agenda across? does the legal system here jail entire towns is one resident is found guilty of murder?

Well, Just because a few people may want to smuggle prohibited items onto a plane, we are ALL subject to draconian restrictions (searches, scans etc) - we are made to prove we are not up to no good. That is not unreasonable.

Neither is it unreasonable to suggest that, BEFORE we export one more animal, every slaughterhouse should prove they are up to treating them humanely.

[ving]

you could have quoted the rest of my post where i suggested certification, etc...

[ving]

b) the best (why did the others not allow them in? hiding something?)
Scotty

maybe they arent... maybe the reporter only targeted the worst?

it would seem reasonable for someone who is against killing and eating animals to report a worst case scenario doesnt it? what better way to get their point across?

[Scotty72]

maybe they arent... maybe the reporter only targeted the worst?

it would seem reasonable for someone who is against killing and eating animals to report a worst case scenario doesnt it? what better way to get their point across?

It is just as reasonable to assume the operators who did not allow the ABC crew to film, had something to hide by not allowing them in.

[ricstew]

Thank you Farmer Rob for explaining this far better than I can.........did you know that aprox 2/3 of the farmers that live in our region are over the age of 60, never completed school ( usually left just before high school age ) and are close to illiterate. They do not live on mega acreage with huge homesteads. They are deeply in debt. They have coped with years of drought and the suicide rates have soared Their children and grandchildren don't want to farm....I wonder why

[farmer_rob]

Rob, let's not pretend that all cattle are suddenly unsaleable.

That is certainly true - but the question is where? The reality is that these cattle are bred for a specific market. They have value to that market, but not to other markets. (I currently breed Angus/Wagyu cross cattle - I get good money from people who want this mixture, but it is a small market - I drop $200/head if I sell them through a normal beef market.)

At the same time, the cost of trucking them from where they are now to markets in NSW, QLD or Vic is up to $200/hd - take a $1000 animal, drop $200 because it is in the wrong market and a further $200 for getting it there - that is a lot of profit gone immediately. There are also logistical problems - you can only use B-double trucks in Victoria (and I think NSW) - so you need more trucks than in the NT.

I know you don't care that those "who sell into torture... lose money", but they are not necessarily the ones who are losing money. It is a long supply chain, and changing it around for a large quantity of animals is problematic.

The reality is that Indonesia only accounts for a part of beef production. We ca still ship live cattle to many other parts of the world; we can consume the meat on the domestic market; or we can delay the sale of stock. None of these will account for all of the stock, but in combination they can do a lot.

I seldom eat meat, but I'll do my bit and put my hand up to buy a roast or two specially if farmers want to organise a one-off sale of some of the cattle they were going to export to be tortured to death. I reckon most Australians would do the same.

And the point is it doesn't matter if the people who were making money out of selling cattle to be tortured to death lose some money or not. That practice is simply unacceptable under any circumstances. We can't help the 100,00 animals in Indonesia. Short of going to war, there is nothing we can do about them. But we can make sure that the cruelty goes no further by stopping all exports of livestock until the Indonesians decide to join the human race and enforce basic civilised standards on their processing facilities. If they want to buy our meat - and they do, we know that - then they will do it.

Sadly, I think you will find there are others that will step in and take the trade, and that will be that. (Before the BSE issue in the USA, the Japanese market was split largely between Australia and the US. When US beef was banned, Australia had all of a smaller market. When US beef was allowed back, it did not regain the same market share - even of the smaller market. Recent figures are about 60% Australian, 30% US, 10% local.)

The majority of Australian beef is exported. Some markets will not take animals unless they are live. We will effectively lose the Indonesian market through the current actions.

Some may say this is OK - it is wrong to sell into cruelty. However, as I have stated earlier, I think there are better ways than abandoning the market at the start.

[Sezzy]

It is just as reasonable to assume the operators who did not allow the ABC crew to film, had something to hide by not allowing them in.

Would you let a stranger into your house with a camera, even if you didn't have something to hide? I know I wouldn't...

edit: I don't care enough to try and explain it to those who just don't understand or care...as long as the cows are okay - that's the main thing...don't worry about the farmers, they'll be right, right?

[Scotty72]

Would you let a stranger into your house with a camera, even if you didn't have something to hide? I know I wouldn't...

edit: I don't care enough to try and explain it to those who just don't understand or care...as long as the cows are okay - that's the main thing...don't worry about the farmers, they'll be right, right?

So, it is ok to have deathly suspicions about a journalist trying to uncover a truth; but we must never suspect those attempting to cover it up?

What a deliciously warped logic?

[Sezzy]

So, it is ok to have deathly suspicions about a journalist trying to uncover a truth; but we must never suspect those attempting to cover it up?

What a deliciously warped logic?

You can twist it to whatever suits you, as you've done with everything else I've said. You win...

Making assumptions usually ends badly for most people, and so does a one eyed perspective.

[Scotty72]

A good set of numbers to support the notion that the MLA cares far less about the welfare of animals than it does manipulating the public into thinking the MLA cares about the welfare of animals.

For cattle exported alive (current yearly funding)

$ spent on animal welfare $186,000

$ spent on Community Concern Campaign (ie propaganda to give the perception of animal welfare) $ 725,000
$ spent on marketing / market expansion $933,000

(source Beef Levy Review, 2009)

So, there is about 4x as much spent on trying to convince the public that animals are treated well than there is actually treating them well.
About 5x as much (again) is spent on marketing campaigns.

Where does the cattle industry's real priorities really lie?
Scotty

[ving]

It is just as reasonable to assume the operators who did not allow the ABC crew to film, had something to hide by not allowing them in.

and thats just my point... we just dont know do we. it could very well be either way but youseem to be taking sides without all the information.

yes it hurts ones backside sitting on a fence but its better than jumping to conclusions without having all the information

[ving]

What a deliciously warped logic?

delicious cause its beef right?

[Scotty72]

delicious cause its beef right?

I agree: the best cows come with a side salad but, no need to treat them cruelly.