Council sponsered photo shoot

[Longshots]

Well thats quite different Darren. Thats top dollar for my council (which is btw ?) is quite different to what event photography Top Dollar is. And its also a huge difference to be stating what a per hour rate is and what covering the entire event is. Perhaps you should reread your own posts ?

And btw, my point was to value the work based on something more than the beer money (in the ops original post), and to always take into account covering your costs in the professional market as if you were needing to rely on that income as a living wage (again referring the ops original post about professional work). I simply cannot compete with people who work out their costs to simply cover some of their photographic equipment purchases. And I'm not complaining about that, simply being a realist. If you want to sit down and do a business plan, truly working out not only what your costs are, and what you hope to earn from your photography to cover your living expenses (ie wages as in your real world), and what else you need for progressive investment in future capital, working out how many "hours" or "days" that you are likekly to sell, and how many "hours" or "days" you need as a min to seel then you might get somewhere near the figure of a min of $300 - as suggested by the OP, and not simply saying that $100 is top dollar that implies you cover the entire event, post production, even if thats min, and invoicing the client.

So if you have done all of that Darren, then I retract the word guessing - because if I dare to make an assumption, that you have not done that research, then I'm afraid I stand by the word that you are "guessing". Its not meant to sound offensive, its simply being realistic.

And if you want to go back and read this part from the OP:

My concern is that I am a hobbyist photographer and although it is always nice to make a few dollars as I go along, am I taking income from the photographer(s) that are usually employed by the council to cover this type of event?

Or should I just go with the flow and make a few dollars.

There is also the caveat "I dont have a lot of dollars", so they may be expecting that I do the job for beer money!

If you answer that logically, then you need the information and experience.

Or you can compete with others who are all quite happy to shoot for less than $100 a job because thats what they're happy to value themselves at. My experience with councils and clients is just when you think that you're possibly pushing the envelope charges wise, especially after they try and push you down and screw the prices down; all of a sudden they commission/employ another photographer (who of course you dont think they're that much better), and pay them 5- 10 times - yes Five to Ten times (real life experiences I'm afraid), and you just walk away shaking your head.

So please dont feel threatened of that I'm having a go at anyone here, I'm simply saying that you can never ever make a statement that a rate is "top dollar" and imply that the market wont pay anymore, because two things will happen - one is that market will cut their rates in half, and the other is that it will bite you on the bum when you become the victim of someone suddenly being paid a great deal more than you got paid for the same previous job.

[bb45pz]

I don't think anyone was suggesting this was going to be a shoot for $100 total, rather $100 an hour (as per my initial post)...or closer to $300 total (I think that was the initial figure mentioned although not by the OP).

[kiwi]

I am simply saying got this sort of thing, driving down the road with no particular brief to take three hours of general coverage and then hand over unprocessed jpegs that $100 an hour shooting is at the upper end of what my council (which used to be pine rivers) would ever pay, might be different now they are moreton. I've done a few for way less couple or three years back and had a very clear understanding what they normally paid (if at all) for local family fair type things.

Is 300 fair for 3 hours at a community event across Brisbane based on those parameters ?

I guess you have to use your own experience, I'm just handing over mine.

[Longshots]

I would think 100 or so is top dollar for this sort of stuff

We have a misunderstanding then because I read your post Darren as $100 for the job - total.

And I was also supporting the original suggestion of $300 from the OP as a reasonable fee.

[kiwi]

Yeah, I can see why there's been a misunderstanding, all good. I was talking an hourly rate. It would be great if there was a standard rate card wouldn't it that you could refer too instead relying on guesses, or in my own case relatively limited experience.

I would as William mentioned try to charge time for travel, any meetings, and post processing too, not just shooting time. On my invoices I dont actually specify the rate, just the start and end time and total amount that includes everything if you can negotiate it. I personally just can't bring myself just to hand over images untouched, I'll at the very least level, crop, colour balance etc and weed out the crud shots so add in an hour of processing per three hours of shooting as that seems to be about right for me anyhow.

Good luck. Let us know how you go

[chris_m]

Thanks for all the good discussion on this topic.
I'm going to decline the job as I reckon the real rate will end up around the $50 per hour mark.

The job will pay $110 per hour for time actually spent taking photographs at the local event. Although they are saying "shoot & burn" I would be doing a basic cull and edit of any images handed over, so that would add at least another hour to the job. With travel, time on site and editing it would be a 3 hour job for a total of $165. About $55 per hour (or less) will be the resulting hourly rate I reckon.

[Redgum]

That's a shame Chris. In reality the rate you were offered equates to $4000 per week (take photos and give them a disk) and I can fairly safely say no one on this forum earns that sort of money from that sort of work. Also, you won't know what other opportunities you may miss. You've just closed one of your networks down without experience.
And Kiwi, you're on the money with Moreton Bay Regional Council. The figures you suggest would top out most councils across this country. (I've just done a 2000+ shoot for them over the Hornibrook Bridge).

[reaction]

While I agree with Redgum I also think for $165 unless it's in my area of interest I wouldn't bother getting out to do the job - it's not like OP needs to put bread on the table with this. However I do love events and I would have done the job.

[Longshots]

That's a shame Chris. In reality the rate you were offered equates to $4000 per week (take photos and give them a disk) and I can fairly safely say no one on this forum earns that sort of money from that sort of work.

Would you care to explain how you calculated that equivalent rate of $4000 a week please ?


Even if you were stupendously fortunate to arrange 13.5 equivalent back to back 3 hour shoots during the week, (and most people talk about a 40 hour week, although we know that everyone works a great deal longer than that) that would at $50 per hour be just $2,000 per week, but even knowing one of the busiest event photographers in Australia isnt able to pull that one off. So thats just half of your equivalent of $4,000 per week.

The average running costs of a one man photographic business was discussed and debated by way of government and industry involvement, and the industry concluded that (by the way this is based on people who depend on this for a full time income, and not simply calculate on what they think would equate to "beer money", or additional income) in 2009, of total monthly costings/overheads, which included the photographers wages of $3334.00 per month (*before tax) - thats 833.50 per week - before tax - , that those costs were $8777.51 per month to run their business. Which when taking into account standard holidays, that the average running costs on a per hourly basis for an average photographer (who its assumed has already invested in capital equipment - ie that wasnt added into the equation, and that is a significant cost for any start up business), again assuming a 40 hour week, that the hourly running costs of being a photographer in business, worked out to be $59.85 per hour. Thats how much it costs to run their business with a wag, but not including capital investment and future capital investments (ie photographic and computer gear)

I see many people agree to work for less than that, and they can enjoy that luxury because, a) they have a primary income which gives them that option, and/or b) they cut corners and fail to equip themselves with many of the minimum legal requirements of being in business, or c) (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT ONE) within 2 years they are out of business, because they were not charging a rate that was sustainable.

and I can fairly safely say no one on this forum earns that sort of money from that sort of work.

And FWIW I'd beg to differ on what you think of as safe.

[Longshots]

Yeah, I can see why there's been a misunderstanding, all good. I was talking an hourly rate. It would be great if there was a standard rate card wouldn't it that you could refer too instead relying on guesses, or in my own case relatively limited experience.

I would as William mentioned try to charge time for travel, any meetings, and post processing too, not just shooting time. On my invoices I dont actually specify the rate, just the start and end time and total amount that includes everything if you can negotiate it. I personally just can't bring myself just to hand over images untouched, I'll at the very least level, crop, colour balance etc and weed out the crud shots so add in an hour of processing per three hours of shooting as that seems to be about right for me anyhow.

Good luck. Let us know how you go

You cant produce a rate card (we tried) because ACCC consider that as price fixing. We can try and point people to what is possible and what is not in the economic sums of doing business. And then that can be ignored by people who have no specific interest in making a profession out of something that they simply enjoy. Now there's no crime in that.

But its important relevant to not only include - and btw I didnt say try, if I said anything I would have implied that you should include in your calculations things like travel and pre and post production (however brief) because its all part of being a photographer.

The misunderstanding is that I assume whenever someone here asks for advice on what a professional should charge, that they are seeking that advice from a professional stills photographer that relies on their income derived in the first case, of professional stills photography. I think that without any offence intended to many here that is a fairly reasonable position ? I therefore think that its important when answering and debating with opinions, that to achieve the highest level of assistance to the OP's question, that some transparency wouldnt go amiss - ie "while I think this, and have experience of some selling of my photographic work, I charge a rate that is not based on a level of sustainability in the professional sense". Surely that is reasonable ?

[Chris Michel]

not sure if this is relevant but i am curious now ( after reading long shots and redgums posts ) to see how many full time professional photographers are actually members here... how many list photography as their main employment on their Tax return each year.

[I @ M]

not sure if this is relevant but i am curious now ( after reading long shots and redgums posts ) to see how many full time professional photographers are actually members here... how many list photography as their main employment on their Tax return each year.

This thread will give you some idea Chris.

[Redgum]

Longshots asked?

Would you care to explain how you calculated that equivalent rate of $4000 a week please ?

Give me a call William, my financial planning company can give you a lesson on that. In simple terms that most understand we here in this country and in fact most developed countries quote our worth from our weekly or annual income. For instance a doctor might earn $200k pa or a tradesman/professional $100 per hour which equates to $4k per week. In fact it is the first question you are asked if you're looking for a bank loan and the ATO rely on this figure before giving any assessment. Even a person on salary regularly quotes "I'm on $60k per year. None of them bother to explain their expenses until much later on so in this conversation it's irrelevant.
The point I made and the point that most people make when looking at the worth of business is its potential earnings. In this case it was $300 for 1.5 hours of work (given no post production) which in reality is the equivalent of $8k per week. No one is arguing that you will get this work every hour of every day (except you) but it is the basis of a starting point. And for those good with business this is exactly how they start. In fact most accountants will ask you as one of their first questions what is the potential of your proposed business.
I'm sure Chris is not going to sit there and work out annual expenses for a single job, just simply what it would cost him to do that particular task but he does need to know the potential can be far greater than $200 per hour, once up.
In answer to your other question about photography, yes, for me it ranks only second to my five primary occupations in terms of income and well exceeds $4k per week which is publicly known. In fact this information is available through a search of any private or public company and is carried out at a frequency by Banks that would scare most people.

[Longshots]

Longshots asked?
Give me a call William, my financial planning company can give you a lesson on that. In simple terms that most understand we here in this country and in fact most developed countries quote our worth from our weekly or annual income. For instance a doctor might earn $200k pa or a tradesman/professional $100 per hour which equates to $4k per week. In fact it is the first question you are asked if you're looking for a bank loan and the ATO rely on this figure before giving any assessment. Even a person on salary regularly quotes "I'm on $60k per year. None of them bother to explain their expenses until much later on so in this conversation it's irrelevant.
The point I made and the point that most people make when looking at the worth of business is its potential earnings. In this case it was $300 for 1.5 hours of work (given no post production) which in reality is the equivalent of $8k per week. No one is arguing that you will get this work every hour of every day (except you) but it is the basis of a starting point. And for those good with business this is exactly how they start. In fact most accountants will ask you as one of their first questions what is the potential of your proposed business.
I'm sure Chris is not going to sit there and work out annual expenses for a single job, just simply what it would cost him to do that particular task but he does need to know the potential can be far greater than $200 per hour, once up.
In answer to your other question about photography, yes, for me it ranks only second to my five primary occupations in terms of income and well exceeds $4k per week which is publicly known. In fact this information is available through a search of any private or public company and is carried out at a frequency by Banks that would scare most people.

While I respect your financial experience and prowess, clearly I doubt your ability to recall what was said by the OP and that the so called 1.5 hours would actually involve 3 hours work, which the OP stated as translating from the $165 to no more than $55 per hour "if that".

So rather than speaking to you personally I think it would be more enlightening to the forum if in your past career in banking could explain in detail how a potential earnings of 4K a week based on freelance offer of $55 per hour. Yes potential is always something we all like to consider, but surely any bank is going to assess how likely it is to translate one's full potential based on the current markets supply and demand.

BTW for the record, I didnt doubt your income, nor did I refer to any figure of $4 k per week other than referring to you making that statement re Chris turning that amount down.

But perhaps you would like to reread what you've said in this topic :

In reality the rate you were offered equates to $4000 per week (take photos and give them a disk) and I can fairly safely say no one on this forum earns that sort of money from that sort of work.
.

[chris_m]

I have thought again about what Redgum has said on gaining the experience and losing the contacts, so I have gone back to the council and I will be doing the shoot after all.
I'm going to do the work not so much for the money, but for the experience and to make some more contacts.

[Redgum]

Chris, I'm proud of you. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose by that decision. What would be really nice is for you to come back to the forum after the job and tell us what transpired, what you learnt and how you feel. I'm sure there are many others here that would love to hear.

[Longshots]

Chris, I'm proud of you. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose by that decision. What would be really nice is for you to come back to the forum after the job and tell us what transpired, what you learnt and how you feel. I'm sure there are many others here that would love to hear.

Well I wont disagree with you on that Redgum And an excellent suggestion to come back after the event and let the forum know how you get on.

[chris_m]

Will do.

My next task is to provide a Statement of Supply certificate with my invoice as I dont have an ABN.
I expect I will find this on the ATO web-site.

Is it worthwhile having an ABN even though I would be earning well under the minimum?

[Longshots]

Will do.

My next task is to provide a Statement of Supply certificate with my invoice as I dont have an ABN.
I expect I will find this on the ATO web-site.

Is it worthwhile having an ABN even though I would be earning well under the minimum?

In simple terms - Yes

[reaction]

Costs $ to get and manage an ABN... right?