Professionalism.

[Scotty72]

From the AAPP mission statement (http://www.aapp.com.au/aboutus/aboutus.html)

Australian Accredited Professional Photography began as Portrait Maker in 1979 when a number of established Victorian Professional Photographers formed a marketing group. (my emphasis)

Kinda says it all. It seems to be the photography equivalent of the 'tick of approval' companies pay to use of their questionably healthful foods.

Scotty

[kiwi]

I don't see why it should be a surprise that a group such as aapp is first and foremost about looking after their members' interests ?

If they do the right thing they will also therefore serve the industry that their members are in unless they are self destructive

Everything I've seen of both groups seem to suggest that they are protective and passionate of the photographic industry

There are plenty of other photographic membership organizations (eg aps) that are there for the hobbyists etc

[Longshots]

I know nothing about the AAPP Zorro.

But I've been around for a while thanks. And I'm not saying that anyone is saying any lies. Being a member of an association such as AIPP is withouth doubt beneficial.

But lets address the issue of regulating the industry, and by that I'm talking about government regulation. I'm informed and experience enough to say quite categorically that federally and in my own state of Qld, no one is pushing through any form of regulatory reform regarding the photographic industry. If it was happening I'm confident I would know. I can tell you that 15 years ago Qld Goverment were approached by a couple of AIPP members who ran a small campaign to introduce regulations within the industry. Qld Gov did their own review, and instead of the many thousands of complaints about sub standard and unscrupulous photographers, (the concept promoted by those approaching the government), after a year long review, Qld Gov released their report, and concluded that just eight complaints within the past 12 months had made there way to the Office of Fair Trading about photographers, and after that and many other issues were reviewed, it was seen that ther was simply no need to regulate the industry.

I am seriously glad that AIPP have helped you to become a better photographer, as I passionately believe that that's what its there to encourage.

As I said that I know little about AAPP, I thought I would do some research. Interesting that AAPP would appear to have very low membership:

1 member in Qld

1 member in NT

4 members in NSW

36 members in SA

17 members in WA

15 members in Vic

3 international members

77 total membership listed on their website

No offence, but with less than 77 members, it isnt going to change the world. To be honest its a pity that it fractionates the industry. If the voice was a unified voice, we, photographers wouldnt be so easy to manipulate. After 18 years of involvement in photographic lobbying on many issues, with that small membership, I'm not surprised that I'd never heard of them. So if they are lobbing for regulation, I wish them good luck, because I for one dont want yet another goverment body asking me to pay up for an annual registration fee for bugger all in return.

Small point but unless the AAPP website is out of date, Bob Litchfield is not listed as the current WA President. The current WA President is according to their website Martin Penfold.


Just because I hold a view that differs from your own Zollo, does not make me a cynic, and I object to that tag, simply because I'm offering you some insight into what has actually been happening on the constant topic of regulation, "will it happen when it will happen".

Its important not to get confused with names, letters and numbers after your name, and the topic title which was "professionalism". Sure we can all hold differing views on this. And this topic always gets nice and warm

I'm not sure if on some issues we may be talking at cross purposes though. AIPP have an accredited system, that is definitely not available by purchase only, and this is being developed into a system that I suppose could be looked upon as a form of self regulation. Now I'm 100% in agreement that that's a good thing. And it doesnt matter to me which organisation is doing it. Other than to have twinge of regret that all the organisations cant remove some of the individual egos to look forward to the benefits of a unified and single organisation voice. But hey this isnt about changing the photographic world, but about professionalism. So it doesnt really matter which organisation or association you belong to, all of them have a basic code of ethics and agreed moral and ethical code of behaviour, so that has to be a step towards being a better professional. On that I'm sure we'd agree.

Just going back to your comment about your course though; while you were doing your photography course, I feel that I can be confident enough to state that I doubt that the course curriculum covered how to produce a business plan ? And it wouldnt have covered even how to register a business name ? As I was teaching a Cert 4 course earlier this year, and also as already stated on the advisory panel of developing the national courses, I know full well, that these very basic points are not covered.
Now wouldnt that be great if it had included that ?

BTW Dont agree with your conclusion Scotty.

[Longshots]

I see professionalism as much more (but including), having the gear, having done the courses, etc. Professionalism is a mind set and attitude as well.

One can be a professional with exemplary history in a field, but that does not make them a professional in another field, either.

I agree with I @ M, seems we are getting more and more of these in recent years, in most 'professions'.

Sorry, but I thought I'd just quote Ricks comment again, because it relates exactly to the topic question - which I'd like to get back to, and Rick says it concisely hitting the nail on the head.

Thanks Rick

[hoffy]

I have read this thread with interest. Nice to see a balanced response by many, especially Zollo, who is living and breathing it! And nice to see someone keep it all under control as well.

Just one question, Kiwi (I won't quote you, as it was quite a while ago), why do you think that out of all the Full time Pro's, less then 5% have formal qualifications? I am just curious (& no, I am not trying to bait. My personal opinion would be > 50%)

[kiwi]

Yeah, well, just a guess. I've looked at plenty of pros websites, chatted to them on facebook or forums etc. I never see much mention of getting that diploma or doing this course etc

William said 50% maybe and that high would really surprise me

[Redgum]

Storm in a teacup. Who cares?
Reminds me of Henry Ford. Not an engineer. Didn't know what a car looked like. Has no mechanical aspirations. Couldn't drive. He simply surrounded himself with fifty professionals and his legend and wealth live on today.
As for professional bodies - just a means to make less money by sharing your knowledge with others who can't do it by themselves. From personal experience over a long time.
Knowledge is the key to success and in this case photography is only a small portion.

[Longshots]

I said less than 50% of my Friends Kiwi

I keep on saying that yes doing a course can be extremely beneficial, but it doesnt guarantee anything, certainly not a job.

And for the record I have no formal qualifications either - I do have multiple letters that have been well earnt, and none of which have been bought or purchased. Fellow of BIPP, Fellow of RPS, Master of Photography with three bars _ incorrectly called a Quadruple Master of AIPP, Master of Photography of NZIPP. So - W. Long M.Photog III, MNZIPP, FBIPP, FRPS. Does that make me any more of a professional ? No. IMHO if I dont behave "professionally", then I'm not a professional.


By the way in addition to Redgums comments, I believe that:
Ferdinand Porsche wasnt a qualified engineer
nor
Ferruccio Elio Arturo Lamborghini

[hoffy]

Thanks Kiwi, just curious.

[farmer_rob]

In Australia you do not have to be a member on any professional bodies. Dentists do not have to be part of the ADA (Australian Dental Association). Doctors for not have to be part of the AMA. I do not see photography becoming 'required' membership of a professional body, even if one body becomes the primary group.

Having a group to lobby in instances of law changes etc, is a good thing, power in numbers and all that, but I do not see the day when photographers have to be a member occuring.

You may not have to be a member of a professional body such as the ADA or the AMA, however you are required to be registered under state law to practice dentistry or medicine. e.g. Pharmacists must be registered in Victoria with the Pharmacy Board, who have requirements for ongoing professional development (regular training to keep current) - however, you do not need to be a member of the Pharmacy Guild or the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia (the relevant professional body). But there is precedence for the professional body being the registering body - in the UK, the Royal Pharmaceutical Guild of Great Britain is both the registration body and the professional body. There are similar examples in Australia in other professions.

I cannot see an argument for any form of registration of "professional" photographers. It is up to the photography professional bodies to establish that membership of such bodies is
a) recognition of "professional" behaviour - ie conforming to the code of ethics
b) recognition of a minimum standard of performance
c) recognised by the paying customer ("the public") that membership of a body by their chosen photographer is meaningful in some way.

I think a good parallel is accountancy - look at the way the professional bodies work to establish their worth to the public (not their members), and professional membership is effectively recognised as a form of registration.

[Redgum]

I think a good parallel is accountancy - look at the way the professional bodies work to establish their worth to the public (not their members), and professional membership is effectively recognised as a form of registration.

Perhaps not a good example Rob. There are more accountants in Australian gaols than any other profession. And the tertiary course of choice for gaol inmates is accountancy/law.

[nomis]

interesting...
I guess after reading 3 pages time to type. A good thread.
Professionalism to me is the attitude presented by the person I'm looking to use the services of - paid or unpaid . Never really considered their qualifications or bank balance or if that's how they made their living..
Had skin cancer removed from next to my eye last year. If I left it any longer I could have lost sight in my right eye. I did not ask to see one single persons qualifications I dealt with, let alone the guy that cut me up. Just faith and trust in the people I was dealing with. And their "professional" attitude.

I guess a lot of people paying a photographer for their skills are hoping for the same - a good result.
If my surgeon cut my eye out by mistake - my problem for not doing enough research on him.
Same with employing a photographer or any one using the services of another.

Its unfortunate that this industry is going to go the way of the painter from 100 years ago,
with digital really opening up photography for everyone.
(i for one think it's great - the more photographers in the world the better - good or bad)
((less and less paid work for those not talented at their craft - the good will always have work))

If you look at it in the big picture people are still painting when most thought that art form would die..
And people will still take photos - there just may not be as many making a living from it..

Talented people will still get work if they have a "professional" attitude and that "professional" attitude will become more important than the quality of work to a certain degree, as the amount of work dries up..
Some people get too protective about what they have and not sharing what they know.
Money and Art will always get confusing.

[farmer_rob]

Perhaps not a good example Rob. There are more accountants in Australian gaols than any other profession. And the tertiary course of choice for gaol inmates is accountancy/law.

I think you caught the hidden part of my parallel there Redgum - but would you use an "unrecognised" accountant? (And how much of that is brainwashing by brand image of the accountancy bodies?)

"Professionalism" in photography is dependant on individual action, unless the representative bodies build a proper brand image that resonates in the minds of the customer.

[Redgum]

This debate is not about "professionalism" it's about "status". Some people want to be recognised or considered good at photography. Well that's easy, do the job and if it's good enough you will get paid and recognised.
Not unlike the concreter who says he/she will lay a path for you. If they screw it up they simply don't get paid and you don't call them professional for a lot of reasons.
Why not be proud of being an amateur or hobbyist and forget all the hassles of being what you are not. At least that way you get to ask silly questions without being frowned upon. Oh! to be naive and learn so much.

[Paul G]

This debate is not about "professionalism" it's about "status". Some people want to be recognised or considered good at photography. Well that's easy, do the job and if it's good enough you will get paid and recognised.
Not unlike the concreter who says he/she will lay a path for you. If they screw it up they simply don't get paid and you don't call them professional for a lot of reasons.

Everybody wants to be recognised or considered amongst their peers to be good at something. It's just human nature - the need to feel accepted or worthy . Though there are some happy loners in the world - I have my days!

I don't know about concreters not getting paid though RG. Most I've inquired of want 50% deposit up front and then still can't do the job for a number of months and keep putting your job off!

Why not be proud of being an amateur or hobbyist and forget all the hassles of being what you are not.
At least that way you get to ask silly questions without being frowned upon. Oh! to be naive and learn so much.

I am.
But I want to be so much more. I always have with whatever I do.
Which is why I do ask plenty of questions! Not all silly though.



Incidentally after reading through the last four pages a few times I think I am going to change my username as it's just...too long .

Gotta say one of the best things I've read in this topic was Nina's description of how she went about studying (not formally) and preparing to work as a photographer. That is dedication and professionalism in my opinion. I have a similar system in place but only the beginnings of what she described so maybe there's hope for me yet.

Longshots I read what you said about photography courses and I had a look earlier tonight at what some of the TAFEs around the country offer and I can't believe the differences, and what I perceive to be 'gaps' in their offerings. I truly hope there is a National curriculum, or standard, on the way as you allude to. Queensland's TAFE website was very lacking for even the most basic info and one of the three core units that was mentioned in the Diploma was to prepare you to work in a PhotoLab .

[SRR33]

Not sure where you get your information from Zollo, but I can assure you that as an Ex Board Member and Ex National Vice President of both AIPP and ACMP - (only one other person in Australia has been daft enough to do the same as me there!) - but you are unbelievably and most definitely wrong. And as a Fellow of the BIPP and RPS, I can also state that the same situation is in the UK - that they have all given up entirely with the idea of lobbying for regulating the industry. It aint going to happen.



And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, on your earlier comment; but if you are keen for a dose of reality, whilst a 2 or 4 year course may be extremely useful, it is not going to make you any more professional than someone who has never had any formal training.

Unfortunately, thats exactly the spin the education system tries to convey, but the reality is that most students who've completed a Cert 4 or Diploma in Photography rarely get given the information required to actually set up in business. As I've been on the advisory panel that produces the ever evolving Cert 4 and Diploma national courses, I know full well the huge hole in the system. So I'm afraid that you're kidding yourself if you think that by simply doing a two year Cert 4 course that you are any more a professional than a self starter who has never opened up a photographic course book.

So if I followed the logic of your comments, are you also saying that you are more of a professional than me, because I havent had any formal training ?

Hmm I dont think so. Hate to also tell you, but approx 50-60% of all the professional photographers I know (ones that have been in business succesfully for more than 10 years and are still succesful), are all self taught.

Now dont misunderstand me, I certainly think that doing a formal course can be hugely helpful. But the reality is that it really does not automatically give you any more professionalism than someone who hasnt.

100% agree to the above.

Now on another note, do clients even ask if you have a certificate or if you are part of some photography member (AIPP etc)??? I doubt they even care. I think the first thing they look at is your portfolio and then they ask themselves, can this photographer capture something for me that i will like. Once they select a photographer or two, they contact them, speak to them in person and get a feel of them. Then price comes into a big factor, and then availablity. I think thats pretty much it to be honest.

Perhaps noting you are credited on your website can win over the client, but i doubt you can be more professional than someone who hasnt been credited.

Offcourse there will always be a photographer or two who is not professional at all, but thats everywhere.

[kiwi]

That's because the general public typically is ignorant of AIPP or any other professional body.

It's not as though AIPP or any other body has the marketing budget to do push advertising (TV, Radio etc)

I think it's the obligation of members to educate the public on engagement about the "profession" and why and to choose a photographer (along the same lines as what Mark posted ages ago) that suits their budget and expectation

[bigdazzler]

I doubt that many of us check the credentials of many service providers we seek out for various work to be done. Just a fact of life. If your toilet breaks, you go to the Yellow Pages and find a plumber. Do you ever ask to see his trade ticket ?? I doubt anyone would answer yes.

[kiwi]

and that's where the danger lurks, maybe the photographic industry is no worse than any other.

A veneer of flashy marketing and "professionalism" with an underbelly of incompetence and inexperience

[Kym]

99 replies and no response from Tony B O.P. ??