Professionalism.

[Erin]

If being a professional photographer means having * edited - personal attack - do it again and you will be under a ban from the site- admin *

Professional behaviour is just as important as the money earned.

[Scotty72]

Professionalism is yet another meaningless, weasel word that has crept in to the world of spin and commercialism; rather like 'healthy', 'low fat', 'scientifically tested' or 'green.' - c

I find the word professionalism is most often applied in the pejorative, when one practitioner in a field disapproves of another. "I think he is so unprofessional" tends to really mean "I don't like him and I can't think of a good, valid reason why."

Photography is obviously not one of the traditional, learned professions studied at a bachelor's degree level, where you need a licence to practice and to which one can study to achieve the top of the academic tree - a professor.

However, it is a profession in the same sense as a golfer, a footballer, cat-walk model or even a prostitute is. There is no academic requirements - all you need to be is good enough at what you do, or attractive enough that someone wants to pay you to do it.

So, I find all this. "How dare 'so and so' call themself a pro photographer?" talk a bit like the primary school kids saying, "Get out of my sand-box, I was here first."

If someone wants to pay you to take a photo, you are a professional photographer.

Scotty

[Longshots]

Definitely not. But Organizations such as AIPP and AAPP are pushing very hard for photography to be formalised and regulated. I know the English equivalent organizations are quite close to doing that in England.

thanks bigdazzler and kiwi it went a looong way to help me secure my first (photography) jobs!

Not sure where you get your information from Zollo, but I can assure you that as an Ex Board Member and Ex National Vice President of both AIPP and ACMP - (only one other person in Australia has been daft enough to do the same as me there!) - but you are unbelievably and most definitely wrong. And as a Fellow of the BIPP and RPS, I can also state that the same situation is in the UK - that they have all given up entirely with the idea of lobbying for regulating the industry. It aint going to happen.



And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, on your earlier comment; but if you are keen for a dose of reality, whilst a 2 or 4 year course may be extremely useful, it is not going to make you any more professional than someone who has never had any formal training.

Unfortunately, thats exactly the spin the education system tries to convey, but the reality is that most students who've completed a Cert 4 or Diploma in Photography rarely get given the information required to actually set up in business. As I've been on the advisory panel that produces the ever evolving Cert 4 and Diploma national courses, I know full well the huge hole in the system. So I'm afraid that you're kidding yourself if you think that by simply doing a two year Cert 4 course that you are any more a professional than a self starter who has never opened up a photographic course book.

So if I followed the logic of your comments, are you also saying that you are more of a professional than me, because I havent had any formal training ?

Hmm I dont think so. Hate to also tell you, but approx 50-60% of all the professional photographers I know (ones that have been in business succesfully for more than 10 years and are still succesful), are all self taught.

Now dont misunderstand me, I certainly think that doing a formal course can be hugely helpful. But the reality is that it really does not automatically give you any more professionalism than someone who hasnt.

[bigdazzler]

Its interesting to hear William tell us that the cert IV or diploma dont offer much in terms of photography business management skills ... I dont know exactly what they teach in the courses but I would have assumed that would have been a large part of the curriculum.

[kiwi]

Its interesting to hear William tell us that the cert IV or diploma dont offer much in terms of photography business management skills ... I dont know exactly what they teach in the courses but I would have assumed that would have been a large part of the curriculum.

Probably in the same way that graduating with a bbus doesn't make you Donald trump

But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up

[zollo]

read into it what you will (and have). and as for the pro organizations giving up, Mr Bob Litchfield, current president of AAPP WA must be telling students lies. Or maybe you'd better head along to the National Convention in Fremantle in August to see for yourself how serious they are about change within photography.

[bigdazzler]

But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up

Absolutely agree. The networking, and contacts made, would be a big positive no doubt.

[Scotty72]

Probably in the same way that graduating with a bbus doesn't make you Donald trump

But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up

Exactly, university are not what they used to be a TAFE colleges probably were never what they used to be.

They tend to be giant degree mills where the main goal is not usually academic enquiry or skills development but the fabled piece of paper and contacts within a network.

Therefore, what 'professional' value, if any, do they really hold?
Scotty

[ricktas]

My Diploma of photography gave me a good insight into things like contracts, TFP, marketing, customer management, recruitment and retention. There was a part of each course unit that involved taking photos, but interestingly they did not really relate to the units. For example, my TFP unit, whilst full of information on contracts and how to get models to work under TFP, the photos needed were 'Australiana' ??

Did I learn a lot from my diploma, sure I did and much of it was relevant to running a business. Did it give me everything I needed to start a photography business, NO! From a business point of view my two diploma's in Business were a lot more intense and worthwhile than my photography diploma. Even the marketing aspect of my Business diploma's (one is advanced) taught me a lot more than the same unit in my photography one.

I would suggest that doing courses, you would be better off focusing on marketing and accountancy (tax and record keeping), and learning your photography by hands-on practice.

[Scotty72]

read into it what you will (and have). and as for the pro organizations giving up, Mr Bob Litchfield, current president of AAPP WA must be telling students lies. Or maybe you'd better head along to the National Convention in Fremantle in August to see for yourself how serious they are about change within photography.

Or maybe just trying to drum up membership with a sort of scare-campaigne whereby students are frightened into feeling they will be trapped outside the inner-circle...

[bigdazzler]

Probably in the same way that graduating with a bbus doesn't make you Donald trump

But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up

my point was simply that I thought there would be a large-ish fpcus on the business side of things when studying the courses .. but William has eluded to that not being the case. Thats interesting.

and who would be the photographers equivalent to big Donald anyway ?? Leibovittz ??? oh no shes broke now ... forgot ... oops.

[zollo]

Or maybe just trying to drum up membership with a sort of scare-campaigne whereby students are frightened into feeling they will be trapped outside the inner-circle...

oh yeah, i'm scared as heck, despite already working in the industry fulltime

[bigdazzler]

I would suggest that doing courses, you would be better off focusing on marketing and accountancy (tax and record keeping), and learning your photography by hands-on practice.

If .. and thats a big IF ... I decide to ramp it up a bit down the track, I think that would be the route I would take as well. Thats pretty common-sensical advice I reckon.

[Scotty72]

oh yeah, i'm scared as heck, despite already working in the industry fulltime

Then, obviously, you would not be the target.

However, put yourself into the shoes of a fledgeling photography student, desperately trying to find a way into the business.

Doesn't take too much to imagine how some would exploit that by trying to sell access via a membership to a 'peak organisation.'

Scotty

[ricktas]

If .. and thats a big IF ... I decide to ramp it up a bit down the track, I think that would be the route I would take as well. Thats pretty common-sensical advice I reckon.

Just don't do what I did. The Tasmanian Government offered some grants to undertake the Advanced Diploma. I applied and got one. This was a full-time 2 year course, but the grant ($16K) meant I had to complete it within the financial year. I did it, and worked full-time as well. Basically did not have a life for 12 months. Was it worth it, hell yeah, would I do it that way again..No Way! At least the grant meant the course cost me personally about $1K as it covered all the fees.

[bigdazzler]

Then, obviously, you would not be the target.

However, put yourself into the shoes of a fledgeling photography student, desperately trying to find a way into the business.

Doesn't take too much to imagine how some would exploit that by trying to sell access via a membership to a 'peak organisation.'

Scotty

same tactics, and promotional strategies, employed by some of those fly-by-night colleges out there I would imagine.

[zollo]

Then, obviously, you would not be the target.

However, put yourself into the shoes of a fledgeling photography student, desperately trying to find a way into the business.

Doesn't take too much to imagine how some would exploit that by trying to sell access via a membership to a 'peak organisation.'

Scotty

well the AAPP is made up of "professional" or "fulltime working" photographers. you cannot just buy a membership and call yourself a member. so that takes care of the fledgling students scenario. second you must present regularly your portfolio with new work to stay a member, to make sure your work is improving and not going downhill. otherwise you will become an ex-member. that takes care of fakes. its much better organised than you have imagined. in fact i'm sort of glad some of the cynics around here are not the president. you would learn nothing lol

[Scotty72]

well the AAPP is made up of "professional" or "fulltime working" photographers. you cannot just buy a membership and call yourself a member. so that takes care of the fledgling students scenario. second you must present regularly your portfolio with new work to stay a member, to make sure your work is improving and not going downhill. otherwise you will become an ex-member. that takes care of fakes. its much better organised than you have imagined. in fact i'm sort of glad some of the cynics around here are not the president. you would learn nothing lol

Well, if the AAPP want to have the industry regulated, and served by a 'peak, representative body', can I assume the AAPP would decline to be that body? I doubt it.

Membership could well become complusory... fees would be set and soar... the BIG winners? the AAPP.

So, the AAPP could well have a big financial reason to push for this to happen ... little to do with so-called professionalism - more to do with a cornering of the market...

Scotty

[zollo]

Well, if the AAPP want to have the industry regulated, and served by a 'peak, representative body', can I assume the AAPP would decline to be that body? I doubt it.

Membership could well become complusory... fees would be set and soar... the BIG winners? the AAPP.

So, the AAPP could well have a big financial reason to push for this to happen ... little to do with so-called professionalism - more to do with a cornering of the market...

Scotty

maybe scotty, maybe not. I couldn't answer for them. however everyone goes to work for money, that said. anyways, im gonna fake being pro and leave this thread alone before it turns into something its not.

p.s. I will add that AAPP and AIPP have helped me a lot in all aspects with becoming a better working photog. so for me it hasn't been one way street. cheers

[ricktas]

In Australia you do not have to be a member on any professional bodies. Dentists do not have to be part of the ADA (Australian Dental Association). Doctors for not have to be part of the AMA. I do not see photography becoming 'required' membership of a professional body, even if one body becomes the primary group.

Having a group to lobby in instances of law changes etc, is a good thing, power in numbers and all that, but I do not see the day when photographers have to be a member occuring.