PROFESSIONAL status level

[jim]

Can I introduce a dissenting opinion at this point? I can see the point of separating out people who are just starting out in photography into the "Beginners" category, but I'm blowed if I know what the "Intermediate" category is for. Looking at the competition entries it's hard to see any clear difference between Intermediate and Advanced, and I'd venture that that's not surprising when the categories are mostly based on people's subjective assessment of their own ability. Unlike the Beginners category I can't really see any clear criteria for separating the other two categories. Anyway, aren't advanced photographers exactly what the more modestly advanced members should be testing themselves against?

[Kym]

When we first setup the system, everyone was set to Intermediate by default and had about a month where you could alter your level up or down.
Now you can only alter your level up, a moderator can alter you down if needed.

Most new members leave it set at beginner (the new account default).

So the raw numbers are not as useful as they could be.
It might be better to analyse the members that actually enter comps.

[Maezyra]

I'd like to keep Intermediate... I'm definitely not ready to go up against Advanced people just yet...

[ricktas]

Ok. Question:

Is the current levels system broken to such a point that it is not relevant?

Personally I think it works quite well, but interested in what you think, cause nothing should change, just for the sake of change. And if we did change the system to more levels, is that going to make anything any better?

[MissionMan]

I don't think the current system is an issue. There is an occupation field in profiles that allows people to state their profession. I'm not sure we need more than that. As people mentioned, there are talented amateurs and dismal professionals and then there are other factors. There are people who specialise in one area and may be dismal in others. It shouldn't reflect your perception of them because we have little way of knowing what makes them money. Someone may make a fortune off product photography but be terrible in landscapes, with people getting a distorted perception of how good their work is simply because they're working outside their genre.

I know the rating system is also based on mod's upping. Is there a fixed policy for this. I.e. 2 wins in a category and you shift to a higher level? If not, maybe there should be. I do think it needs to be more than a single win. Someone can get one good photo by fluke and win a comp, two requires more consistency and skill. When I first started I was snapping photos of everything and by default I picked up great shots on the pure principle of volume of shots. I.e. A pro may get spectacular shots 1/5 times, an intermediate 1/50, an amateur 1/500 etc.

[ricktas]

I don't think the current system is an issue. There is an occupation field in profiles that allows people to state their profession. I'm not sure we need more than that. As people mentioned, there are talented amateurs and dismal professionals and then there are other factors. There are people who specialise in one area and may be dismal in others. It shouldn't reflect your perception of them because we have little way of knowing what makes them money. Someone may make a fortune off product photography but be terrible in landscapes, with people getting a distorted perception of how good their work is simply because they're working outside their genre.

I know the rating system is also based on mod's upping. Is there a fixed policy for this. I.e. 2 wins in a category and you shift to a higher level? If not, maybe there should be. I do think it needs to be more than a single win. Someone can get one good photo by fluke and win a comp, two requires more consistency and skill. When I first started I was snapping photos of everything and by default I picked up great shots on the pure principle of volume of shots. I.e. A pro may get spectacular shots 1/5 times, an intermediate 1/50, an amateur 1/500 etc.

We upgrade people based on one or two wins. It can be that someone has made the final poll 6 times and then won one, we would upgrade them at that time. Cause consistently getting to the final poll means that fellow AP members think their photography is pretty darn good at the level they are on.We also upgrade if someone is posting great work to the forums, even if they have not won or even entered a comp. Or if some who is say a beginner announced in a thread that they are about to shoot some weddings. We look at as much as we can to determine an upgrade. It is not simply one win and up you go, it is an overall view of their activity on the site.

[MissionMan]

We upgrade people based on one or two wins. It can be that someone has made the final poll 6 times and then won one, we would upgrade them at that time. Cause consistently getting to the final poll means that fellow AP members think their photography is pretty darn good at the level they are on.We also upgrade if someone is posting great work to the forums, even if they have not won or even entered a comp. Or if some who is say a beginner announced in a thread that they are about to shoot some weddings. We look at as much as we can to determine an upgrade. It is not simply one win and up you go, it is an overall view of their activity on the site.

Thanks. That makes sense.

[geoffsta]

Not exactly an all consuming national issue of life and death though, is it.

Exactly....

(ME) There is already NTP. Why not expand on that.... (Rick) which is beginners.

I always thought there was a "New to Photography" level. With comps every now and then. I think I had better get with the program

Is the current levels system broken to such a point that it is not relevant?

No...... Not broken, it works well.. But the question was asked "Should there be a professional level" The answer of course is NO. But could there be compromise?
And another answer could be; "If it aint broke.... Don't fix it"

[Mark L]

Round and round and round we go.
And where we started from is where we'll finish, 'case three levels works.
I think it's especially important for beginners.
Any more than three levels for comps will dilute a good product, IMO.

[I @ M]

Round and round and round we go.

Seems to be human nature to fix things that aren't broken before they actually are.

[Ezookiel]

Any more than the current levels and it would become too complex to work out where you belong.
To a degree there are actually 4 levels if you include NTP, and those brand new to photography do require an area of their own beyond "beginner" but apart from the, way too small, "professional" category suggested, which has already been shown to not be workable, the only other realistic change would be to split "intermediate" a little more as it is a rather broad category, but that would make it impossible to know just where you belong. Considering it's not a perfect world, I think the way it is, is as good as we could realistically expect to have and still have it workable.

[swifty]

Question: can a member compete in a category above their skill level?
If not, why not allow it such that members who feel the competitions unequally distributed can try their hand at a higher category.
Their skill level can remain unchanged but maybe they might feel they have an exceptional shot worthy of challenging more experienced photographer's work.
Of course you won't be allowed to compete in categories below.
Or would that just make things too messy?
And just to argue against myself, I actually think the system is fine as is (as in 3 skill levels). It's a quick reference for giving cc too. Cc you give to beginners will often differ to that you give to advance photographers. As for competitions, I dunno if the system's broken there (haven't competed in a while).

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Actually come to think of it, a 'pro' moniker may be useful in CC as it may be useful to know whether the critic has industry experience. I mean many of us know who the regular pros are here but not necessarily new members who are pros.
But for AP comps, maybe the pros can compete with the advance peeps.

[ricktas]

Question: can a member compete in a category above their skill level?
If not, why not allow it such that members who feel the competitions unequally distributed can try their hand at a higher category.
Their skill level can remain unchanged but maybe they might feel they have an exceptional shot worthy of challenging more experienced photographer's work.
Of course you won't be allowed to compete in categories below.
Or would that just make things too messy?
And just to argue against myself, I actually think the system is fine as is (as in 3 skill levels). It's a quick reference for giving cc too. Cc you give to beginners will often differ to that you give to advance photographers. As for competitions, I dunno if the system's broken there (haven't competed in a while).

- - - Updated - - -

Actually come to think of it, a 'pro' moniker may be useful in CC as it may be useful to know whether the critic has industry experience. I mean many of us know who the regular pros are here but not necessarily new members who are pros.
But for AP comps, maybe the pros can compete with the advance peeps.

We could do this. I have the ability to select Beginner, or beginner and intermediate. Intermediate, or Intermediate and advanced, or Advanced, or even Beginner and Advanced, or all three levels for the one competition. As comps are created I just choose the level(s) that can enter.

To give everyone a background, if I get a chance this evening, I will do some screen grabs of the comp back-end and post them up with some detail of how we create the comps, do voting etc, just so everyone can see what goes into it behind the scenes

[Kym]

To give everyone a background, if I get a chance this evening, I will do some screen grabs of the comp back-end and post them up with some detail of how we create the comps, do voting etc, just so everyone can see what goes into it behind the scenes

This may help... http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...nd-of-the-site

[Kym]

KISS !!
The original idea of levels was to encourage NTP/Beginners to enter comps as it was supposed to be less intimidating.

Let's not over engineer it