View Full Version : Birds what do i require?
Hi everyone,
I'm new'ish to photography and want to give birding a try.
Currently I do mostly landscape/holiday/4wd shots, but have been getting frustrated when sitting around camp watching all the bird/animal life around me, and not being able to take the shots i want of them.
I have been using a 7d with a efs15-85 lens.
I'm going to start with the little wrens, robins, fantales etc we have in our backyard
From the reading i've done on ausphoto i have ordered a canon 100-400L, what i'm wondering is if i need any other gear to do a good job? eg a flash unit or extender
thanks kipp
Hi Kipp!
This is excellent gear to start with - you have selected the best all-round birding combination under $10,000.
An extender will be 100% useless on a 100-400. A 1.4 extender isn't usable on anything less than an f/4 lens, a 2x extender really needs an f/2.8 lens, and even tyhen they are never as good as the real McCoy - bare glass.
You do need some support - tripod, monopod, or both. Hand-holding is all very well, but you really need the ability to deal with poor light and longer exposures, so a tripod is essential. (Or you can get away with a monopod if the light is not too bad.) Tripod is heavier, more awkward to set up, but steadier and easier to use for much longer periods. Monopod is faster and easier to use, but no good for long vigils or very long exposures.
A tripod certainly needs a good head, a monopod head is optional
Flash is good to have even if you are not birding. Do not even think abut anything less than a 580EX II. You need all the light you can get!
Good hunting!
Sar NOP
19-07-2011, 6:54pm
Hi everyone,
From the reading i've done on ausphoto i have ordered a canon 100-400L, what i'm wondering is if i need any other gear to do a good job? eg a flash unit or extender
You'll probably need to know two things :
1- Your subjects,
2- Long lens techniques.
What tony has said and one other very important piece of gear, a great deal of patience.:th3:
one other very important piece of gear, a great deal of patience
I got mine from a local supplier, but I need some more, can I get a patience extender? Can I get one cheaper buying on-line to dodge the GST? Is the imported one just the same? And what happens if I lose my cool and need warranty on it?
nouveau1
19-07-2011, 8:01pm
as a relative newbie also (and using the same combo you have), i'd repeat Rich's Hall's mantra - get close!
i'd also suggest that a lot of shots may be missed while trying to set up a tripod, so be prepared to brace against trees/posts etc (although this may be why i seem to get a lot of soft shots....:o)
thanks tannin
- a bloke at the local camera store (no names) tried to sell me a 2x extender but thanks to this site i had a feeling that it wouln't work. (note not the first time this store has given me wrong advice and bad support)
- i have a tripod it's only a chinese knockoff but i decided to spend the money on the lens instead (i was considering a sigma 150-500, about half the price)
- as for a flash is it worth trying to use the standard flash whilst i save up for a good one?
i will try and post some photos as soon as i get a chance to take some, hopefully you guys can tell me how to improve on them.
yeah i'm not generally that patient a person but i'm quite stubborn, which i'm told can sometimes be substituted/confused for patience. :th3:
I think a bird would come in handy for bird photography too, not that I'm an expert
I got mine from a local supplier, but I need some more, can I get a patience extender? Can I get one cheaper buying on-line to dodge the GST? Is the imported one just the same? And what happens if I lose my cool and need warranty on it?picked up mine at big W EOFYS.... 20% off!
Cheers Kipp.
Name names, mate. Advice as bad as that should be named and shamed in public. It's a not just wrong, it is spectacularly and horribly wrong. I am amazed that anyone sweeping the floor in a camera shop would get it so wrong.
Cheap tripods aren't much use. When you are ready, ask here for advice on a good one to go for. They are not expensive. Heads, on the other hand, cost a fair bit, and cheap heads only end in tears. Do it once, do it right. Yes, as Nouveau1 says, you miss a lot of shots setting up a tripod, but that's the price you pay for extra sharpness (especially as you graduate to bigger, heavier lenses). As a general rule, you will use the little 100-400 hand-held. (Richard will be along later to tell you how wonderful a monopod is - that's his go and not really mine so I'll say nowt about it.) Where a tripod is far, far better than anything else is in situations where you wait for the bird to come to you, such as in a hide. With a tripod, you can wait comfortably for hours if need be. You can also follow some action for a long time waiting for the magic moment. Hand-held, you can't - sooner or later your arm gets tired.
The built-in flash really won't achieve much. For starters, the fully extended lens will probably shade it unless you take the hood off, and possibly even then. Secondly, you need a lot more oomph to do anything at birding distances. And thirdly, you'll get red-eye because it's too close to the lens.
"I will try and post some photos as soon as i get a chance to take some"\
Looking forward to it!
I think a bird would come in handy for bird photography too, not that I'm an expert
^ Pfft! Old school. Go back to your pipe and slippers, Grandpa. :eek:
The built-in flash really won't achieve much. For starters, the fully extended lens will probably shade it unless you take the hood off, and possibly even then. Secondly, you need a lot more oomph to do anything at birding distances. And thirdly, you'll get red-eye because it's too close to the lens.
"I will try and post some photos as soon as i get a chance to take some"\
Looking forward to it!actually i have used the built in flash with the 150-500. generally if kyou are chasing little birds they are on 4 or so meters away and the flash hits fine, i find even at min focus distance i dont have to remove the hood. its ok for a backup.
that said its no substitue for an external.
nouveau1
20-07-2011, 1:10pm
Cheers Kipp Yes, as Nouveau1 says, you miss a lot of shots setting up a tripod, but that's the price you pay for extra sharpness (especially as you graduate to bigger, heavier lenses). As a general rule, you will use the little 100-400 hand-held. (Richard will be along later to tell you how wonderful a monopod is - that's his go and not really mine so I'll say nowt about it.) Where a tripod is far, far better than anything else is in situations where you wait for the bird to come to you, such as in a hide. With a tripod, you can wait comfortably for hours if need be. You can also follow some action for a long time waiting for the magic moment. Hand-held, you can't - sooner or later your arm gets tired.!
too true! even the 100-400 gets very difficult to hold still for any length of time... and there's no doubt about the superiority of the tripod static shots either.
the other thing no-one has yet mentioned is the padded waterproof bag so you can lie on the ground and stabilise the lens for those low shots and/or place on ledges/railings/cars etc. also useful if one gets caught in the rain - (as i did recently and have just received a 260 dollar quote from canon:()
rick
as for a bag what would you recomend?
ive curently just got a triangular lowepro that fits the 7d body with the 15-85 atatched, but no room for anything else.
as mentioned above my local camera store is worse than useless, and a bag is something you want to be able to see and feel before you buy, (i imagine).
can anybody recomend a store in the south east melbourne area (i'm from Rosebud)?
ta
rellik666
20-07-2011, 3:09pm
I would take a trip to Elizabeth Street in Melbourne and visit them all......there is also a crumpler store on Little Bourke if you are so inclined. It really is worth the effort.
piXelatedEmpire
20-07-2011, 3:25pm
I would consider the following in addition to your new gear:
-external flash, 580EX II. Especially if you are going to be chasing bush birds and those that like shade. I use my flash for bird photography ALL the time. You will need GOOD rechargeable batteries as well for this.
-extra battery, if you don't have two already. I know of a very good Chinese store on eBay that sells genuine Canon batteries for a VERY good price. PM if you wish.
-monopod. I find this much more user friendly than a tripod, especially for bird photography. But I'm on the move a lot when taking photos.
-backpack. LowePro make excellent backpacks. Again, I got mine from eBay for an excellent price.
That's really it gear wise, you'll be set. Next is patience, a willingness to learn, and PLENTY of practice!
i never use a backpack while out birding... but then i travel light. camera, flash birding lens... thats about it. i might shove some snacks into my pockets.
nouveau1
20-07-2011, 6:19pm
keep it simple. like ving, unless i'm hiking i dom't have a backpack... currently just a shopping bag with a towel and a plastic bag.. if you can find onr of those old padded "cooler" bags, they're good - waterproof, padded so it'll mold on to irregular surfaces and so rest the camera and lens without shake, and light - also doesnt look like you're carrying $$$$ of camera gear.
rick
ps the dry bags you use for kayaking with a towel or some foam would work quite well too = just thought of that ...
feral1
20-07-2011, 11:30pm
There is a lot of good info in here from Tony and the others.
I like Richard Hall use a Monopod, but do use a tripod when in one place for any length of time, such as a hide etc, as Tony mentioned it is easier to use and keeps the hands and arms free till the action starts.
I use a flash quite a bit, when low light and shadows are at their worst, The flash I use is the 430 ex II, I have not so far needed any thing stronger, but that is not to say I would not eventually get one when I can.
If you want a bag, pick one that will fit what you have and a bit more, as, as time goes on you will start to fill it. but 1 thing I do not take a bag out with me, other than in the car, the reason, on ly usually walk what I call short
distances from the car, a few k's. I do have a smaller bag if I do need to take one.
Always and I do mean always take a garbage bag with you on the suss days, 1 keeps camera dry, 2 keeps you dry from lying on the ground. I always keep one in the bag, it comes out when I need it, it scrunches up into my pocket.
The one thing you will need as already mentioned, is patients, birds are funny creatures, they do as they want, not what we want them to do., learn each of the species of bird you are after, this will make it easier to get closer.
enough of my ramble, I hope to see your shots when the gear comes in.
Peter
Just one quick thing that as been talked about, Batteries you can pick up almost all camera batteries from battery world at half the cost , all mine have been from there and never a problem.
iPhone bird call application ?
nouveau1
21-07-2011, 7:57am
iPhone bird call application ?
good idea - saw one of these recently, and 'twas impressive.
Tannin
21-07-2011, 12:13pm
iPhone bird call application ?
No. That is cheating. It turns you into a tourist with a big camera instead of a naturalist who takes pictures. I wouldn't say never use recorded calls, but almost never is a good rule. You might as well just take shots in a zoo somewhere and pretend that they were in the wild (saves learning your trade), or easier yet flog some pictures off someone's Fickr account and fudge the EXIF (saves going outside and getting cold).
Lance B
21-07-2011, 12:17pm
Firstly, you need a FLL and the longer the better!
Secondly, as Sar says, learn your subject matter.
Thirdly, be patient.
Fourthly, learn FLL technique.
No. That is cheating. It turns you into a tourist with a big camera instead of a naturalist who takes pictures. I wouldn't say never use recorded calls, but almost never is a good rule. You might as well just take shots in a zoo somewhere and pretend that they were in the wild (saves learning your trade), or easier yet flog some pictures off someone's Fickr account and fudge the EXIF (saves going outside and getting cold).
Interesting, I had no idea that people would feel strongly about the things since they were created by naturalists i thought.
What's FLL Lance ?
Tannin
21-07-2011, 12:43pm
I'd say the first "L" stands for "long" and the second "L" stands for "lens". I asked my mother what the "F" stood for but she wouldn't say. :eek:
It clearly stands for fairly. You need a fairly long lens for birding.
That's strange, I thought the F stood for Flash and the L stands for length, the other L lost me
Lance B
21-07-2011, 12:46pm
I'd say the first "L" stands for "long" and the second "L" stands for "lens". I asked my mother what the "F" stood for but she wouldn't say. :eek:
:D Yes, that is correct.
Just trying to add a bit of humour which I hope doesn't offend. :)
With most birds, the longest lens you can get, within reason of course, is often necessary.
Lance B
21-07-2011, 12:47pm
It clearly stands for fairly. You need a fairly long lens for birding.
:lol: Yeah, that's it! :rolleyes:
lol, you even had me resorting to a google search on acronyms :D
Tannin
21-07-2011, 12:55pm
^ A GSA? :)
mrDooba
21-07-2011, 8:28pm
Lance offered something of real value
"Learn your subject matter" and "be patient".
I'll add be observant.
Being patient means it might take years to get the photo you're after of a given bird. Maybe never :eek: But be patient, stick to it and you will be rewarded.
Research and read up on the bird your targeting. Learn it's characteristics.
Does it have a habit of perching on certain bushes or islands in a pond. If it does get in position while the bird is somewhere else and wait.
Does it have a "run". i.e. Does the bird move through it's territory in habituated manor. Positioning yourself somewhere along the bird's path might reward you with numerous opportunities to photograph the bird.
Shelley
22-07-2011, 12:54am
Very good advice Chris, as I find birds so predictable. If you keep going back, you can almost anticipate what they are going to do next. :th3:
Lance offered something of real value
"Learn your subject matter" and "be patient".
I'll add be observant.
Being patient means it might take years to get the photo you're after of a given bird. Maybe never :eek: But be patient, stick to it and you will be rewarded.
Research and read up on the bird your targeting. Learn it's characteristics.
Does it have a habit of perching on certain bushes or islands in a pond. If it does get in position while the bird is somewhere else and wait.
Does it have a "run". i.e. Does the bird move through it's territory in habituated manor. Positioning yourself somewhere along the bird's path might reward you with numerous opportunities to photograph the bird.true. it took me ages (reads a year) to get a decent shot of a bell miner.... learn how your prey lives and you will have an advantage. :th3:
here are my first shots with the new 100-400, during lunch today.
please tell me what you think.
thanks kipp
7560475605756067560775608
i have not edited them only croped and resized to fit the upload.
they were shot handheld (probably why they aren't that sharp?)
Michaela
22-07-2011, 7:24pm
It'll probably take a little while to get used to the 7D/100-400 combo - I use the same setup and find that if I'm handholding I need to keep the shutter speed at least equal to the focal length, preferably faster. Also, if you haven't already done it, for birding it's best to set the 7D to use just the centre focus point then it will be easier to get the focus lock where you want it - on the bird's eye.
If no-one has pointed it out already, there is a great resource in the Library section full of information on gear and the technical aspects of birding, plus lots more! :)
This is an excellent start!
I like the idea of seeing Blue-winged Parrots at lunchtime. :) I mostly see House Sparrows, Rock Doves, and European Starlings. :(
This is also a perfect set of examples to illustrate the vital importance of shutter speed for hand-held bird photography. Let's put these five shots in rank order of sharpness, best to worst.
#4 Blue-winged Parrot
#3 Nankeen Kestrel
#2 Superb Fairy-wren
#1 Blue-winged Parrot.
#5 Superb Fairy-wren
(Not much between #2 and #1, but I wound up giving it to the wren by a whisker. All of the others are obvious choices.)
Now let's look at the EXIF values and put the images into shutter speed order, fastest to slowest
#4 Blue-winged Parrot 1/1000th
#3 Nankeen Kestrel 1/800th
#2 Superb Fairy-wren 1/500th
#1 Blue-winged Parrot. 1/500th
#5 Superb Fairy-wren 1/100th
Notice any difference between the two lists? That's right! There isn't any!
Yes, you can take hand-held pictures at (say) 1/200th and 400mm via the magic of IS, but getting that shutter speed up and keeping it up remains the name of the game.
thanks tannin
i actually noticed that when i was reveiwing them on the camera.
so how do i keep the shutter speed up?
i think i shot most of them wide open. with the camera on aperature priority
should i wind up the iso? if so how far is to far? (or is this like a piece of string?)
Well, you'll have to develop your own rules of thumb, but with my 7D I do this:
Good light: 400i
Not quite-so-good light: 500i (which is actually 400i "pushed" electronically to 500, so the noise level is not much higher than 400)
Mediocre light: 800i
Amazingly bright light: 200i (think Silver Gull on a white beach in full sun, not much else)
You will discover that you aren't so much spending your life searching for birds, you are searching for birds in good light.
I usually shoot a fraction down from wide open, but wide open is fine if you need it. Try to keep your shutter speed up into four figures as much as possible. If you are dropping below about 1/800th it's time to push the ISO.
(I often shoot slower than that these days if the light is only fair, but mostly with a tripod. I've had a lot pf practice hand-holding the 100-400 over the years and I also have a pretty extensive bird portfolio, which means that I don't mind taking a risk that shots won't come out as I have others of the same species to fall back on. Drop much below 1/1000th and your keeper percentage drops too.)
Cheers :)
thanks for your help tannin and everyone else. you are probably saving me years if i had to figure it all out by trial and error.
i will have another go tomorrow (if the weather holds)
i found that the tripod ring got in the way so i'll remove that and it might make it a bit easier to hold.
do you guys use any steadying techniques when taking the shots? (i know when using a rifle that breathing out whilst pulling the trigger helps to hold it steady)
Tannin
22-07-2011, 10:04pm
I'l leave the ring on if I were you, Kipp. You'll have to get used to it anyway the moment you start doing any of your bird work with a tripod or monpod, so why not get used to it right away. It also makes a convenient handle for carrying your rig, and even for resting it on sometimes (such as when shooting from a car window).
The best steadying technique is to have three stiff aluminium legs in a triangular arrangement with a sort of flexible swivel on top. :) Failing that, a monopod. And for hand-holding, well, you just take advantage of whatever is there - tree trunks, fenceposts, whatever, and you use the standard long lens techniques - relaxed, steady posture, well-balanced, soft but firm grip on the camera (one hand on the shutter, left hand supporting the lens just behind the plastic hood - don't hold it close to the camera body as then leverage is your enemy), roll your finger over the shutter, try to shoot on the exhale. Oh, and above all else, get close to the bird!
Art Vandelay
22-07-2011, 10:32pm
Very good first effort. Tony hasn't left much out, & Michael has commented on using the single point AF rather than the whole group, so nothing further to add except have fun & keep posting as you go.
Tannin
22-07-2011, 10:55pm
Just on that single point AP matter, adding to what Michael and Art have correctly said, a matter specific to the 7D's advanced and arguably over-complicated focus system. The 7D lets you switch between:
area focus (rectangular pattern of points)
point focus with expansion (cross-shapd pattern)
Single point focus (one square only)
Precision point focus (one square only with a dot in the middle of it)
Use either of the first two for flight shots, the last one for all other bird work. I haven't figured out what the third one is good for yet. You want the smallest focus point possible, and it can make a big difference. Just last week I was shooting a Black-shouldered Kite family. As the youngster approached the home tree, I had to switch out of auto-select mode (for the flight shots) into single point mode (for the sitting pose shots) and didn't quite get it right - I ended up in standard single point mode, not precision single mode. Big difference! Most of those shots are a little OOF because the larger focus point picked up on tree branches instead of the bird.
Time I went to bed. I'm planning to be at Terick-Terrick first thing in the morning and it's a 2 1/2 hour drive, so I'll have to be up just after 4. I met some very friendly Brown Quail there last week before the weather packed in, it's drowning in Hooded Robins, and it's a good spot for Gilbert's Whistler - which I don't have decent shots of. Wish me luck!
i had another go today, some flame robins.
used a tripod and attempted to keep the speed up (iso800)
but i think the biggest difference was made by changing from single point to the precision point focus setting (thanks michaela and tannin), it made it so much easier to get the bird into focus and not have the ground/sticks/etc interfere
same as the last lot cropped and resized no editing
tell me what you think
756517565275653
^ Some good work! Flame Robins are hard! Can I suggest some attention to exposure next? All except the last one seem a little over to me (a half stop, give or take).
With the Canon cameras you have four exposure modes to consider:
Evaluative
Centre-weighted average
Partial
Spot
It probably doesn't really matter which of those you go for, but it is an excellent idea to pick one and stick to it. It's much easier to learn the vagueries of one metering system than it is to switch between several different ones. Partial is the best for bird work in my opinion, but whichever one you are comfortable with is fine.
Well done mate!
(As for me, I set the alarm for 4AM with a view to a weekend away with some Gilberts Whistlers, but the weather went bad on me and I cancelled the trip at the last minute. Maybe next week.)
yeah i've got it on partial.
there were a lot more (of course) that were less exposed but they seemed to lack the detail on the birds feathers, maybe i need to learn how to use photoshop, instead of using it only to crop:D
the robins weren't to interested in getting realy close, somewhere inbetween 5-10meters (the females were easier than the males). however i was in the middle of one of our paddocks with no cover, so not that suprising really.
sorry your trip didnt go as planed
you will be glad to know tannin that i did have the 7d set 1 notch up from central on the exposure comp. must have changed it last time we were away taking shots of poorly lit waterfalls.
there is just too many settings to check everytime i use it, spose practise makes perfect. :th3:
Sorry if I missed someone already saying this, but try walking around with the tripod set up to be eye height when you drop to one knee. I tend to close one of the legs and leave the others folded out. You therefore reduce the time needed to set up the tripod - and being used at a shorter overall height, it isn't too unwieldy having two of legs folded out.
I got that advice somewhere on the internet - but I don't remember from where/who, so I can't give credit.
Now if someone can point me toward birds that don't fly away when I get within 12 meters of them, I might actually get some shots :(
Even the sulfur crested cockies that eat my oranges fly away at first sight.
put down the knife and fork and try not to look so hungry:lol:
98kellrs
24-07-2011, 6:37pm
I'm no expert but a friend has a 7D and uses a feature in the camera which highlights the area that the AF system used to focus on. I think on a couple of the images you might have focussed on something other than the bird (intentionally or unintentionally)?
nouveau1
25-07-2011, 10:05pm
[QUOTE=Tannin;886729]With the Canon cameras you have four exposure modes to consider:
Evaluative
Centre-weighted average
Partial
Spot
thanks for useful tips - good advice indeed!
i'd just add that if you are using spot metering and your subject is close enough that you require one of the accessory focal points be selected to focus on the eye, you may find that a white chest, for example, makes the rest of the shot underexposed. this harks back to tannins other very pertinent comment about shooting birds in good light....
btw noticeably improved shots:th3:
nouveau1
25-07-2011, 10:07pm
Sorry if I missed someone already saying this, but try walking around with the tripod set up to be eye height when you drop to one knee. I tend to close one of the legs and leave the others folded out. You therefore reduce the time needed to set up the tripod - and being used at a shorter overall height, it isn't too unwieldy having two of legs folded out.
I got that advice somewhere on the internet - but I don't remember from where/who, so I can't give credit.
Now if someone can point me toward birds that don't fly away when I get within 12 meters of them, I might actually get some shots :(
Even the sulfur crested cockies that eat my oranges fly away at first sight.
patience, patience, patience.....:D
ricktas
25-07-2011, 10:12pm
Kipp.
I moved your thread cause it was not a photo thread to start with, thus it didnt belong in the bird forum. But since then you have added photos. Please feel free to post critique photos in the Members Photos forums, but gear related questions in the gear forum
yeah sorry rick i realised that i had posted it in the wrong spot about 10 seconds after i hit the button:D
With the Canon cameras you have four exposure modes to consider:
Evaluative
Centre-weighted average
Partial
Spot
It probably doesn't really matter which of those you go for, but it is an excellent idea to pick one and stick to it. It's much easier to learn the vagueries of one focus system than it is to switch between several different ones. Partial is the best for bird work in my opinion, but whichever one you are comfortable with is fine.
I think Tony means metering system, not focusing. But I am still a novice. :)
^ DOH!
Could some kind moderator please edit my original post to prevent confusion to other readers.
^ DOH!
Could some kind moderator please edit my original post to prevent confusion to other readers.
Done.
I've just purchased exactly the same gear for my first DSLR-7D canon and a 100-400 f4.5-5.6 L Canon lens that was picked up today. I have read through the thread avidly. Odille & I are heading out to Vintage lakes to try out my bird techniques on Sunday so I can take all your advice into account. One thig I haven't bought due to the tax refund not stretching far enough is a flash. I'm having trouble working out how it helps if you are looking at a bird some distance away in a tree to set off a flash- wouldn't it cause your subject plus every other bird in the icinity to head for the hills?
Do you use AE lock at all when metering exposure for birds?
davearnold
28-07-2011, 12:04pm
Thanks to Tannin, I have now activated on my 7D , Precision point focus , one of the reasons why I read AP threads, so many brilliant little bits of info to be learnt and put into practise.
for birds in flight i use AV (aperture priority) iso 400 mostly
piXelatedEmpire
16-08-2011, 12:06pm
One thig I haven't bought due to the tax refund not stretching far enough is a flash. I'm having trouble working out how it helps if you are looking at a bird some distance away in a tree to set off a flash- wouldn't it cause your subject plus every other bird in the icinity to head for the hills?
In my experiences flash doesn't cause too much of a problem in terms of frightening birds. Don't get me wrong, some will react and be gone very quickly the first time you fire the flash, but mostly in my experiences they don't take flight.
In terms of photographing birds from a distance, a Flash Extender aka better Beamer will help in this situation.
Enjoy your new gear!
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