Nikon Mirrorless [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

arthurking83

26-07-2018, 9:42am

That's marketing for you, Arthur!

Personally, I prefer the old fashioned way of announcing a concrete product, then shortly after that, producing the thing itself ...

I'm not sure what insider info you have that this Nikon mirrorless device isn't 'concrete' :confused013
As far as I'm aware, the thing is real.

It's just a marketing strategy to get some momentum up and running to keep the Nikon name active on the internet.

What I'm finding a strange situation:

On one end of the spectrum, I've read a fair amount of chatter that Nikon's marketing is lacking, not very obvious, barely heard across the WWW .. etc, etc.
I tend to read most of what Thom Hogan's writes and it seems that every other blog entry he makes will mention Nikon's lack of marketing/advertising 'noise'. I admit I read it, but don't always agree with what he writes tho.
Also seen quite a few discussion posts on various fora related to Nikon/photography too.

Then on the other side of the fence, here we have complaints that Nikon's advertising noise seems to be 'too loud'.

It's just marketing!! The fact that you're posting a reply of any kind(on the topic of Nikon) and or this mirrorless product means you've fallen for Nikon's marketing hype/ploy!
Keeping this thread active and ongoing in any way helps those search engine bots find more data about Nikon mirrorless, and it maintains currency ...

You claim it's lacking info, or you want 'concrete product' marketing, but you have perpetuated the the very idea that Nikon has tried to implement with this campaign ... which is to create internet chatter about the product.

So (looking back now) is Nikon wrong to have used this strategy? :D

ameerat42

26-07-2018, 12:31pm

Probably, considering that most of it is opprobrium:D

John King

26-07-2018, 2:12pm

Or bloviation, Am.

Arthur, I neither know, nor care. My comment was directed at marketing departments from all companies the world over ...

swifty

26-07-2018, 3:25pm

For those that may be interested in the camera, it's actually quite fun. The piecing together of various bits of info.
So if you care, take a look at all the CSI work that the online community have managed to pull from the images/video so far:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/new-nikon-mirrorless-camera-renderings.aspx/

But if you have no interest in the camera, then I agree your eyes can't roll back far enough LOL
Although you could just ignore it all until Aug 23rd ;P

arthurking83

26-07-2018, 3:44pm

.....

Arthur, I neither know, nor care. My comment was directed at marketing departments from all companies the world over ...

I'm confused then.

Why would make this sort of comment then:

....

Personally, I prefer the old fashioned way of announcing a concrete product ...

The product is definitely concrete, Nikon had previously commented that they're working on a mirrorless camera, but no specifics.
Now they're pre announcing that the product does in fact exist, with some 'teaser' info to make the internet talk 'Nikon'.

You make your comments(no one will deny you your right to comment .. good, bad or otherwise) .. and now you say you neither care nor know.

Try and see it from Nikon's point of view:
on the one hand they have to deal with a Nikon stalwart(Thom Hogan) commenting that Nikon don't do enough with 'marketing' .. and following on from his advice, they now have to deal with the casual observers with no interest or knowledge, claiming that they're announcing a non concrete product(with the implication that it's what ??? .. vapourware or .... :confused013).

Maybe, I'll try to explain my confusion another way:
When Olympus/Fuji/Sony/etc announce lens roadmaps, which is basically the same marketing 'bloviation' tactic, do you make the same derogatory comments on those non concrete announcements, with the consideration that you neither know nor care of those products as well?

John King

26-07-2018, 4:01pm

Yes, Arthur.

In the computer world, many such announcements are termed "vapourware", which I am sure you are well aware of. Long on promises, short on detail, and often product. Windows 9, anyone?

fillum

26-07-2018, 4:10pm

https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/
Reminds me of a movie I saw...50 years ago !
https://youtu.be/ou6JNQwPWE0?t=31s

Nikon seem to be making a big deal about the new mount - and who doesn't get excited by a new mount ? Well, pretty much everyone I think.
It will be interesting to see what other design choices they make but otherwise of little relevance to me as I expect it to be priced way outside my budget...

Cheers.

ameerat42

26-07-2018, 4:15pm

Somebody at Nikon mussta thought they were being klebba :D

arthurking83

26-07-2018, 4:47pm

.....

.... Long on promises, short on detail, and often product. Windows 9, anyone?

I'm more than happy knowing the likes of a Windows 9 never saw the light of day, and that instead we got Windows 10!
if Windows 9 was a lesser experience than Windows 10, and more importantly the same as Windows 8/8.1 .. I'd never have switched.

Once again, I'm pretty sure that the world expects that the Nikon mirrorless camera isn't going to be vapourware.

the definition of 'Vapourware' is a product that promised much, but never got released. (ie. never saw the light of day)
Nikon haven't really promised all that much as far I've read so far.

If they(Nikon) believe that they have a 'speed advantage' of some type .. why is that to be considered marketing guff?
Without knowing the specs, we can only take Nikon on it's word that there is going to be a speed advantage of some type.
Unless anyone knows the specifics of the camera and can say with absolute certainty that there is none .. then the arguments put forward so far are meaningless.

What if it transpires after the product is released, that there is no marketing hype, and this new product does indeed have a speed advantage of some type over it's current competitors.
Wouldn't you expect your company's marketing department to seize on that advantage and tease bits of this info prior to the official announcement?

I think there's a bit too much derogatory sentiment here considering the lack of any actual specs or product details made.

If Nikon hadn't used this type of marketing strategy for this new high end mirrorless product, I for one(with no knowledge, and no interest as yet, myself) would have been disappointed in Nikon.
The assumption I'd have made would be that Nikon have totally abandoned the idea of marketing altogether.
For their own sake this strategy is not only expected .. in a way it's demanded nowadays.

I think your comments have been a bit harsh.

As stated already(Swifty post #17 above) .. revisit the thread on or about Aug 23rd, once the hardware is out there and more is known about it .. then feel free to make harsh and/or critical comments.

John King

26-07-2018, 4:57pm

ameerat42

26-07-2018, 5:04pm

I agree. I don't think the comments are harsh. Some people think that sort of release is "good",
and others don't.

arthurking83

26-07-2018, 5:35pm

Arthur, I'm not making harsh critical comments ...

However, IIRC Nikon did promise some other kind of system before that was cancelled after much obfuscation and no product, so the company (among plenty of others ... ) has prior form :nod:.

They announced that they had 3 compact cameras 1" sensors, fixed lenses ... not really the same thing.
Development/accounting teams realised that they would be too expensive to make, and subsequently try to sell at a reasonable price .. so before they went into production the decision was made not to progress to that point.

not really the same thing. The product was there .. the camera market collapsed right about the time the cameras were due to be released.
Point to note is that (going from Dave Etchells recent article re Nikon sensor development) it seems that a cameras development period is roughly 4 or so years(from idea to production point) .. and back then in that 4 year period was when the major ILC camera market decline hitit's most severe slump.

So no! Not the same thing. Not a system, but three distinct non ILC cameras.

Unlike the other manufacturers(namely Olympus/Fuji/Pentax(Ricoh)/Sony/and any others) Nikon don't have a major corporation behind them to absorb huge losses of an imaging subsidiary. So the 'imaging' department needs to be accountable to the accountants!

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. I don't think the comments are harsh. Some people think that sort of release is "good",
and others don't.

Actually Am, it is(ie. they are).

The comments being made deride Nikon's 'promise' or claim of speed, or light .. or whatever .. yet this is just marketing hype.
No product details yet realeased, so no one knows what this 'promise' is relating too.

Is it related to physical speed. ie. frame rate advance.. as in going after the Sony A9's 20fps super frame rate?
or is it relating to high ISO quality .. as in potentially ISO104K gain with the quality of current ISO6400 noise levels?

My point is that the marketing is being 'refuted' here, but with no basis of fact.

eg. Nikon says "ongoing mission of heading into the future".
Why is that a bad thing?
We don't know Nikon's product planning for the future, but what if this is a pointer that they want to eventually cease all DSLR development and production and switch to mirrorless.

Wouldn't such a claim be a representation of fact if that is their future goal?

From your point of view, it's nothing, mirrorless to you is already omnipresent.
But from Nikon's point of view .. primarily a DSLR manufacturer mirrorless is a new future.
The way I'm seeing this marketing is that it's probably aimed at the likes of the Me's of this world.
Me, being a DSLR dinosaur! I have no interest in going mirrorless. As of yet I'm yet to find one that 'fit's my hand' so to speak. I don't like the current dinky electronic viewfinders.
(IMO) OVFs still offer the best overall performance.
If Nikon have made some new fangled 'klebber' breakthrough that turns an electronic display into an analogue display(ie. no latency/dynamic range), then maybe I'm wrong about mirrorless.
Won't know this till I get my hands on one.
it is incumbent on Nikon's marketing dept. to create the hype to get dinosaurs like me interested.

I'm not taking other folks word for it any longer .. that this new product is leaps and bounds ahead of OVF .. been there, hated that .. no longer trust those comments.

John King

26-07-2018, 5:51pm

Arthur, methinks you are reading far more into a few simple sentences I have written than I have actually written ...

I am also very pro diversity of choice in cameras, and everything else. Both of my businesses have involved helping my clients to make decisions that suit them, not my making decisions for them.

arthurking83

26-07-2018, 8:58pm

Arthur, methinks you are reading far more into a few simple sentences I have written than I have actually written ...

....

true.

it was actually your comments that compelled me to go to Nikon's teaser site to see and read this supposed marketing hype for myself.

I found none to speak of, and came back here asking questions. Seeking clarity I suppose.

I've seen and read more hyperbole on other manufacturers product sites for certain products that are 'in the flesh' ... that never rated a peep from anyone.

I just found it interesting that Nikon suddenly became a target. :rolleyes:
And I guess I found it even more interesting that this specific product receives all this commentary, yet the same marketing strategy didn't for the Df and D850(that I can remember in recent times).

Bear Dale

26-07-2018, 10:13pm

I've tried a few mirrorless cams and the EVF's make me feel seasick. I'll be sticking to dSLR's and OVF's for a long time yet.

It's interesting reading the tsunami of comments on tog sites though, its like mirrorless is the second coming of Christ. You get one of these mirrorless cam's in your hand and your photos are just going to be BETTER!

There may be some bargain F mount lenses (and FF bodies abounding) if droves of people love and take up the new Z mount.

It is entertaining to read about all this new tech coming, but its still more fun using the tech that you actually own and getting out and taking photos.

swifty

27-07-2018, 3:30pm

We get a glimpse of the grip this time:
https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Nikon-mirrorless-camera-swoosh.jpg
Via Nikonrumors:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/27/more-teasers-here-is-the-nikon-mirrorless-camera-swoosh-and-the-official-countdown-timer.aspx/

richardb

30-07-2018, 6:04am

Agree 100%.

swifty

02-08-2018, 2:48pm

Second video teaser is out:

https://youtu.be/YaqbxoitS30

arthurking83

02-08-2018, 2:50pm

Another new video uploaded recently to their site(and youtube):

https://youtu.be/Ax3ZpDs4EgI

Shows a bit more details on the mount design.
Obviously the mount is different in a total sense, but some interesting differences I noted:
F mount(and S mount before this one) both used a three pronged flange design.
New one uses four pronged flange(that is 4 cut outs).
On some devices I have(old manual adapters and stuff) it was always easy to get the flange oriented incorrectly before you realised it.
Harder with lens to camera, due to various factors .. but adapters were easy to mess up fitment.

Also, the number of electronic comms lines. On the f-mount they had increased over time from AF to AFS, and ended up being 10 comms lines for the last few years due to AF-S and whatnot.
New mount has 11 lines. That is the dots that do the comms between camera and lens.

On the topic of marketing: .. seems entirely appropriate for Nikon to make the claim of "leaping into a new dimension" .. new mount is literally a totally new dimension when viewed from the point of view of the old mount types! ;)
If it's also hinting at any other dimensional perspective, parallel, alignment or shift .... I know nothing and care little!!

Only inconsistency about that marketing hype tho, is the fact that their mount designs are only 60 odd years old, and no where near 100 years old.
Company itself is 100 years old now, but only in terms of optics .. not cameras.

Anyhow! .. it's their birthday(celebration) and they're free to do as they please. :p

Nick Cliff

02-08-2018, 5:15pm

Perhaps Nikon is having it's Nokia moment:)
Seriously the Japanese patent system made it hard for other companies to emulate great innovations in technology, perhaps this has changed.
There was a problem with quad runner bikes and different ways of mounting engines and also with the steering on their various makes of cars as each manufacturer had to use different designs.

cheers Nick

swifty

02-08-2018, 7:41pm

Looks like a Panasonic G9 :D
Or if we're going back in history, kinda reminds me of an F100.

swifty

06-08-2018, 9:14pm

From https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/05/another-nikon-mirrorless-camera-picture-leaked.aspx/

We get a pretty good look at the top plate.

richardb

07-08-2018, 8:57am

You all see a wrong cam mock-up :lol:

cupic

11-08-2018, 9:18am

Some Say this will stretch the marriage of Men will GAS
Me on the other hand will look to sell sell sell to the newer system....But will keep the glass

cheers

arthurking83

22-08-2018, 11:20pm

Nikon Rumours have just posted so called 'official press images of the two cameras Z7 and Z6.

Nikon Z6 and Z7 mirrorless on NR (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/a-closer-look-at-the-nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorles-cameras.aspx/)

My current thinking:

* subject to an EVF that doesn't make me feel queezy! ... the grip looks nice(for my taste).
My primary camera feature when I decide to make a purchase is it's grip.
No 1 ergonomic feature by a long shot.
No 2 is then viewfinder. I still haven't found an EVF that I think won't make me seasick after a couple of minutes use. (ie. still not a fan)

So I'm currently more than keen to get a hold of one ASAP.

arthurking83

23-08-2018, 3:35pm

Nikon Aus has yet to update their website, but the cameras have now been announced.

Z6(24Mp) and Z7(45Mp), and 3 lenses to begin with.

Some interesting thoughts coming from folks that were at the press release.
One comment I found interesting (for my personal preference) is that the EVF appears to be the same ol same ol.
The comment was that you can see some flicker in the EVF under fluoro lights .. which is basically why I find them annoying, making me feel queezy in some situations.

So I dare say it's probably not going to be for me.
I'll have to definitely check one out tho, to be sure.

Bear Dale

23-08-2018, 5:26pm

Not much chop if you need to take a seasick pill an hour before using one.

Cage

23-08-2018, 6:09pm

The My Nikon Life blurb has just hit my inbox.

Tannin

23-08-2018, 6:46pm

I must confess to a complete lack of interest in mirrorless kit. Wake me up when mirrorless has a decent viewfinder.

(You will probably need a shovel, some large electrodes, an old castle, and a bolt of lightning, but don't worry about that. Wake me up anyway.)

MrQ

23-08-2018, 7:04pm

Certainly priced at the more serious end of the spectrum. :crzy:

peterb666

24-08-2018, 12:16am

Looks interesting and priced right as mid-range stuff. The lenses are a bit of a disappointment - their physical length seems to indicate they may have been designed for a greater flange to sensor distance and then Nikon has cut that distance and the lenses now contain a filler. I could be wrong but they just seem too long.

arthurking83

24-08-2018, 7:40am

I must confess to a complete lack of interest in mirrorless kit. Wake me up when mirrorless has a decent viewfinder.

...

I've never been impressed(with EVFs), so my initial temptation was quelled fairly early on with the Sony A7s when I had to have a try.

I have no doubt that at some point they will become as good(ie. no downsides at all) and then the focus(pun intended) will then be on their advantages.
I keep reading from devotees that you get WYSIWYG, which I'm calling crap.

I'm not the 'instant gratification type' where I need to see what my final images are going to look like in real time. For me, WISWIGI(what I see when I get it :p) is only important once an image has been popped through my image program, tweaked a little for whatever purpose and then uploaded to share.
And for the past many years, that always requires tagging!

All I'm interested in is the possibility to use whatever manner of weird lens combinations(short flange distance) of the mirrorless design.

Major issue for me is the ergonomic factor around the size of the grip. Size of the body is critical, and if this thing is only as big as a D5500, then I'm not holding onto any sense of hope that I'll have one by the end of this year.
That'll end up a D850.

I've also noted the same point as Peter commented with lenses.

A7 is probably the best example of this for comparing against.
Almost all the A7(or FE mount lenses) are larger than all the similar lens types for Canon/Nikon, except for the ultrawides(where the short flange distance helps).
Obviously the new Sony 400/2.8 is smaller too, but I think that this particular lens was designed more from a standpoint of the need for compactness for a system where compactness is a critical selling point.
I'm sure that Nikon/Canon could build lighter weight 400/2.8's too if they thought that was a critical aspect for some shooters.

agb

24-08-2018, 8:30am

I see no reason why a current Sony user would change to the new Nikon. Unless it is because the grass looks greener, though surely that can be changed in Photoshop.
And think of the cost.

Steve Axford

24-08-2018, 8:41am

Arthur, I would have thought that all 400mm f2.8 users would be interested in less weight.

But on the cameras, who are the likely buyers? Only Nikon users I would guess and few of them appear willing to change from the DSLRs. It will be a tough few years for Nikon, having to run 2 lines of top end cameras and lenses and keep legacy and hopefully new customers happy at the same time.
How do you see this panning out?

swifty

24-08-2018, 11:50am

I agree this is predominantly a release for current Nikon users or at least users who still have a foot in the Nikon camp. Those that have already made the move to switch would be far better off staying put.
In terms of development of lenses, it’s interesting that Nikon has given a roadmap of things to come for Z mount.
Just as interesting is what’s not on it.
Firstly, every lens on it is from the new S line which appears to be the equivalent of gold ring F-mount lenses with supposedly even more stringent performance bars to meet.
So even the f1.8 lenses will be premium products.
I’m surprised how early the f2.8 zooms will appear.

Absent from the Z roadmap are any macros and some fast AF primes except the 50mm f1.2 which will only appear in 2020 so I’m still expecting F mount to complete the f1.4E line which still has the 24/35/85 to go as well as a 135/1.8E.
60mm macro is rumoured to be updated soon for F-mount and I would expect a longer one too, maybe the 200mm. The next 105mm macro equivalent is probably going to be Z-mount.

The exotics are still missing the 200 f2 FL and 300 f2.8 FL.
And of course further development of the PF tele’s.
The 80-400 will probably be updated soon too.

arthurking83

24-08-2018, 12:44pm

Arthur, I would have thought that all 400mm f2.8 users would be interested in less weight.

....

Of course they would.
My point is that mirrorless hasn't really produced 'smaller kit' as everyone thinks it has/had/supposed too.

My point of using the 400/2.8 as an example, is that Sony found that it needed to be smaller and lighter in whatever way they could engineer into that lens for the marketing advantage that a compact system claims to have.

But then you look at the normal lenses, like the 24-70/2.8's Nikon's is larger, but Canon's 24-70/2.8 is smaller and lighter!(than the Sony equivalent).
With the Nikon you'd expect it to be larger and heavier due to it having VR, but the Canon is smaller and lighter than the Sony version AND the Canon does have IS built in too.

The other notable example is the 85mm f/1.4. Nikon's is much smaller and much much lighter by comparison to the Sony version, where Canon's IS version is a bit heavier, and insignificantly larger(ie. taking into account the IS mechanism).

My point being that mirrorless by it's definition or any inherent design aspect, doesn't necessarily imply a smaller kit(overall).

In terms of specific users migrating to or from one brand or another .. I think time will tell.

I think that people who do migrate once due to some attraction to a particular feature, may not think twice about migrating again .. whether that means back to Nikon, or onto Canon.
I think the specific performance of the gear will be the determining factor with respect to the migration aspect.

I do remember when many Nikon users addicted to the Nikon 14-24's that went Sony, and some Canon users ended up getting the Nikon lens even tho they were invested in a Canon ecosystem could be susceptible to migration in any direction.
I think it was Thom Hogan that called them 'leakers' or something like that.
That is, these folks know what they want, just not 100% sure how to do it at the time, and any specific must have feature will persuade them to go with 'brand X'.

@ agb. I see any number of reasons for a Sony user(as describe above) to go from Sony to Nikon(mirrorless). As long as the FTZ adapter is as capable as has currently been described(and or more) .. then you have a far greater selection of lens types to choose from with very few if any limitations.

eg. while the Sony ecosystem currently has a small selection of lenses at the super tele range, with the Nikon system it is (for all intents and purposes) unlimited from 200mm to 800mm(and even more).
And when Canon bring out their inevitable mirrorless system, their range of lenses is even greater than Nikon's is.

So far as I see Nikon's new system, I think they've made a rather large mistake in not having an adapter to suit AF-D(screw drive, AF) lenses as an option too.
While I don't have a lot of these lens types any more, they can be a fairly cheap entry point into photography for some.
I dunno about others' choices and opinions, but for me cost is probably the single most important factor. My primary purchasing decision is "can I afford it".
With that, more of those screw driven AF lenses are far cheaper than their electronically driven AF counterparts.

So if the need was a greater lens type range to choose from, AND maintaining modern features(such as AF), Nikon has really done themselves a disservice in terms of pushing the migration factor by not having a screwdrive AF adapter.

ps. I'm only using these examples as future possible choices. Personally I hate AF-D type lenses, I hate the screw drive system for it's inflexible ability, but I'm me, I have particular methods.
Not all consumers have those requirements, some just want the choice of one way to do it, or another way to do it.
Nikon seems to think that all their customer base is simply loaded to the hilt! That we all have the resources to spend $3-15K on their products.
I don't mind spending $3k on gear if it serves a purpose that I can't do any other way. I was really really close to getting the A7rII just after it came out. Had the $'s ready to get one a couple of years back.
Had I done that, and hence subsequently been a 'Sony users' myself, I'd have sold that camera ASAP once the rumours of the Nikon system garnered more credibility.
FWIW I ended up spending that $5K on two new lenses instead(with some change remaining)

I know of at least two Sony users that have committed to migrate back to Nikon based solely on the basis that Nikon now has a mirrorless system. That is without even waiting for specs and performance comparisons.

- - - Updated - - -

....

Just as interesting is what’s not on it.
....

And of course further development of the PF tele’s ...

I found that strangely curious myself.
I posted on another forum.

At some point the engineers(or manager of the team) doing the 500/5.6 PF must surely have been aware of a new mirrorless camera(and same with the mirrorless team manager).

Why they wouldn't such an opportunity to develop both an Fmount version and native Zmount version makes no sense to me .. from a marketing standpoint.
Obviously Nikon have no intention of abandoning the Fmount any time soon(otherwise they wouldn't be designing Fmount only lenses, and become reliant on the FTZ adapter into the future.

So the gist is something like this(in terms of marketing).

Nikon mirrorless is more flexible that Sony's due to having a greater range of long lenses, which included native 500mm compact lens for wildlife photographers.
As it is, I'm sure they'll get the odd photographer wanting a super long tele lens, like a 500mm) for their compact camera body to go hiking up Mt Everest or whatever, but the downside is that it needs the adapter.. making it a little more bulky than it otherwise would be.

So the mountain climbing wildlife photographer currently HAS to accept the choice Nikon has forced her into, as opposed to gleefully going with just the comapct camera, and a natively mounted lens of fairly small proportion!

I still see a dim future for Nikon looking at what the operating chiefs are currently doing(which is actually sleeping at the helm)!
Until they wake up and see(and read) what it is that some folks want(ie. greater choices), Nikon is is still going to fumble it way ahead, probably one step behind the other makers always trying to catch up.

Bear Dale

24-08-2018, 1:39pm

Wow the size advantage of mirrorless is absolutely amazing !!!!!

https://nikonites.com/attachments/mirrorless/294345d1534766537-nikon-mirrorless-finally-smaller.jpg

Steve Axford

24-08-2018, 2:03pm

Arthur, I do agree that lens size is, more or less, irrelevant for all except wide angle lenses, but I doubt that the 400/2.8 was designed as a demonstration of smaller e-mount lenses. If it proves to be competitive with respect to image quality, then Sony have got a winner lens which should be a credit to their lens division, not the camera design.
I think the camera battles are fascinating and possible more so now than at any time I can remember. The factors include - lenses, sensor size and DSLR/Mirrorless (I suspect that has already been decided), and the major manufacturers all have radically different strategies. I suspect that Canon will have to change it's current strategy of - do little and keep prices down in the hope of retaining/growing their profits. When they move properly into the mirrorless market with high end cameras, they will need to do it with better sensors than on their current DSLRs and that means that they will need to make significant sales with them. Nikon can survive for a while with cameras that may not initially have high sales as they use the same sensors as in their DSLRs. I think Nikon have a hard road ahead, but Canon may be even rougher. Even Sony has significant challenges and any of the 3 majors could stumble.
Then there is the competition from smaller sensors. How will that pan out?

swifty

24-08-2018, 2:34pm

@Arthur: I saw your post on NG. But despite Bjorn’s assurances of a rock steady FTZ adapter, I suspect Nikon knows themselves Z-mount AF will not be Nikon’s top tier. Remember DSLR AF is a moving target and we’re probably a year away from a D6.
I also suspect the f5.6 aperture may be a factor given Nikon Z’s do stop down focusing up to f5.6. With ppl’s penchant for using TC’s, the aperture may drop below a threshold for acceptable performance. But I’m sure someone will be crazy enough to stick a 500 PF on a TC on an FTZ on a Z camera just to show it’s possible and should’ve been done native for Z.
Another factor is AF motors and the focusing groups. All the S lenses uses stepping motors whilst early reports are that the FTZ adapter performs well, there are a lot of ‘chattering’ noise. I think lens designs for mirrorless are quite fundamentally different and perhaps the development of the PF tele’s were too late in the process to really change the design to accommodate stepping motors.

ameerat42

24-08-2018, 4:57pm

Complaints have been received about some posts in this thread, and those posts have been deleted as a result.

Notice:
Members are reminded to avoid heated discussions according to Rule 8 of the Site Rules (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/misc.php?do=vsarules) as a guideline.
Use facts to strengthen arguments, rather than opinions.

Nick Cliff

24-08-2018, 7:05pm

B&H have sent an email to say the Nikon mirrorless cameras are now available,

Nikon Z7 and Z6 Mirrorless Cameras (https://link.bandh.com/u.d?LRxvcRbICU6tegF0aw4S8sXhYNJv6DJjbwzARY1v-rsi8_brPoKP8D0SiPCgcWXQJukho3oR_0i30HS1fyBlu_2V4EpNs3rCu9CTHBT6AMcZV_ljb7fGbATXuKnY2a8rBZ67rSbO9yOLQP5yYGPYiZ8EGwGY8DyNGqBxT-gIt0gHxeziYPqt0o4KKjkwUrc8GeugK3cfddNNbMiNkFc_E-NZY3GneuT4wMqbyP2h-9sJJEgkd4jmvHVsuU-zzrV3S8pbFZWyYf15cOJA8wR4qMiGfOfhkijG0zhHr4ok2r4ViCW0W9_vahP8KHIKE_08-R350hzRYRKKXCVZ0cXh4g==.enc)Nikon has taken the next giant leap in their imaging journey, releasing not one, but two FX-format mirrorless cameras as part of the newly developed Z Series. The Z7 and Z6share many features with a compact, durable, and ergonomic design; UHD 4K video with N-Log and 10-bit output; and class-leading speed and resolution. The differ solely in their choice of image sensor with the Z7 offering a 45.7MP resolution and the Z6 being 24.5MP, and both are back-illuminated CMOS designs with excellent low-light performance. The biggest news here is the Z Mount with its large diameter and short flange distance providing the possibility for advanced optical designs.
NIKKOR Z Lenses and FTZ Adapter (https://link.bandh.com/u.d?7tAvtTu7BFzkNF1oyJRcIA8tInDljAlQZVaP4sTpI4Yi8_brPoKP8D0SiPCgcWXQJukho3oR_0i30HS1fyBlu_2V4EpNs3rCu9CTHBT6AMcZV_ljb7fGbATXuKnY2a8rBZ67rSbO9yOLQP5yYGPYiZ8EGwGY 8DyNGqBxT-gIt0gHxeziYPqt0o4KKjkwUrc8GeugK3cfddNNbMiNkFc_E-NZY3GneuT4wMqbyP2h-9sJJEgkd4jmvHVsuU-zzrV3S8pbFZWyYf15cOJA8wR4qMiGfOfhkijG0zhHr4ok2r4ViCW0W9_vahP8KHIKE_08-R350hzRYRKKXCVZ0cXh4g==.enc)With a new system and mount comes new glass. Today, Nikon has officially released a trio of NIKKOR Z lenses to cover essential shooting needs. The 24-70mm f/4 S is likely to be the most popular with its versatility and compact size, which is benefitted by a button-less retractable design. Two primes are being prepped for launch: the 50mm f/1.8 S and 35mm f/1.8 S. Each promises class-leading performance with silent and fast operation. Also, for those looking to use their existing library of F-mount lenses, Nikon has created the FTZ Adapter for gaining full AF/AE compatibility with over 90 NIKKOR lenses and physical compatibility with many more.

Bear Dale

24-08-2018, 8:21pm

B&H have sent an email to say the Nikon mirrorless cameras are now available,

The 'now' is in preorder for hopefully a month for the Z7 and something like November(?) for the Z6.

ameerat42

24-08-2018, 8:28pm

Don't yer just lurve the term "pre-order". For all its lack of meaning it has wide currency.
(That's spelt with 3 $$$ signs :rolleyes:)

Tarm wahs when you could just "order" something that as not yet available. Now you have
to be excused for speaking such French!:eek:

arthurking83

25-08-2018, 12:29am

Wow the size advantage of mirrorless is absolutely amazing !!!!!

....

Stirrer! :p

It's give and take.
Compare the A7 + 55/1.8 lens to the D850 + AF-S 50/1.8 too.
The Nikon is longer .. by about 5mm or so, but the main advantage the Sony has is about 350g in weight.

Another thing I forgot to mention that was a little disappointing (not)to see in the new Z cameras, is that Nikon have left out the 10 pin accessory port.
Flash sync port I can understand, but the 10 pin port is a Nikon icon!(and PITA at the same time).

- - - Updated - - -

Something weird happened when I posted my last reply, and the 'deleted' posts and the two post I'm quoting didn't initially show up.
Then they showed up after I replied to bear's reply.

I suspect Nikon knows themselves Z-mount AF will not be Nikon’s top tier. ....

I fully realise that Nikon's primary objective is to sell gear. If you make everything backward compatible, then cheapskates like me just hang on to old gear(or hunting down every instance of this old gear as an alternative to the high priced modern stuff.
I get that, no worries.
But, I'm currently seeing it from a standpoint of somewhat confused.
They give a lens roadmap, basically looks good, except not one tele lens?
So if they want people to buy more stuff(new stuff, that is) why not at least tease those interested in the new stuff only(as an example, me .. or you).

The problem is, they're committing to this new stuff, but not fully. So on one hand they want you to buy new, new stuff(no not a typo) .. but on the other hand they want you to buy new old stuff .. new old stuff = Fmount lenses possibly with the adapter.
In marketing terms, and in terms of trying to sell this at the retail 'coal face' is .. well doesn't look good.

eg. woman off the street comes into store: She has no idea on gear, she's not a gear geek like most of us here(ie. she's not the type to hang out in fora and discuss what works and what doesn't) she just has 10K to buy camera stuff for her new photography business!
Oh! Nikon have this small lightweight camera (Z things) and she wants some lenses. No problem you can start with 4 fairly mainstream lenses. Oh! I like to shoot little birdies too she says.
Err, no worries, we have a 180-400/4, a 400/2.8, 500/4 or 500 /5.6, 600 .... etc but it requires this adapter you need to buy for an additional $250(at some point in the future).
Adapter?, what adapter? why does something need an adapter. Do I have to adapt my stuff, why doesn't the other stuff I want require adapters. I'm not adept with adopting an adapter philosophy! .. these are probably all the thoughts running through her now confused mind.

Uncertainty breed anxiety(and or contempt). I'm not really trusting what they're doing at the moment. Actually haven't trusted that they know what they're doing for quite a while now!

They go on and on about how they've just sold over 100 million F mount lenses not long ago, and how the company is now 100+ years old .. etc. all this B.S talk of heritage, and yet they not really practising their preaching.
Nikon have always been a conservative company. Barely inventing anything of noteworthiness. But the one thing I've gathered was that they have a pretty much complete system, they built their reputation on this completeness of their system and durability.
Anyhow, just my opinion that they could have done better with respect to backward compatibility and living off the corpse that was once their 'heritage'.

Arthur, I do agree that lens size is, more or less, irrelevant for all except wide angle lenses, but I doubt that the 400/2.8 was designed as a demonstration of smaller e-mount lenses. ....

I have no doubt in my mind that weight and size was a major design factor for Sony with this lens.
The examples of this are those lenses referred to earlier. The 85/1.4 and 55/1.8. Two lenses that would have easily accepted a more compact form factor, and even a reduction in mass(like the Nikon variants of those lenses have).
I assume that optical performance must have overriden that those (and other) lenses could have been made smaller/lighter, but the difference may not have been a noteworthy marketing advantage.
With the 400/2.8 tho, it's something like 1.5kg lighter.

As for Canon, it'll be interesting to see if they keep the EOS mount, or do like Nikon and use the short register distance concept that everyone else is doing now.

I'm not an optical engineer, but I find it weird that so many mirrorless lenses are longer than you'd expect them to be .. again the 400/2.8 as a perfect example. It's 1.5kg lighter(I'm comparing to the Nikon, but Canon is basically the same). But the Sony is longer by a small amount.
3620mm for the Sony, 3580mm for the Nikon. It's only 40mm, but again, this then makes the camera+lens combo about the same overall size(effectively). In fact I think the length of the Nikon combo is going to be about 10mm shorter.

So, it seems that people have overly focused on the pseudo psycological effect that mirrorles is more compact becasue the body seems to be 'more compact' but you don't use a camera body without a lens.
And over the average, it seems that the loss of bulk in one dimension, seems to have made an equal and opposite effect in another dimension.

swifty

25-08-2018, 1:37pm

I fully realise that Nikon's primary objective is to sell gear. If you make everything backward compatible, then cheapskates like me just hang on to old gear(or hunting down every instance of this old gear as an alternative to the high priced modern stuff.
I get that, no worries.
But, I'm currently seeing it from a standpoint of somewhat confused.
They give a lens roadmap, basically looks good, except not one tele lens?
So if they want people to buy more stuff(new stuff, that is) why not at least tease those interested in the new stuff only(as an example, me .. or you).

The problem is, they're committing to this new stuff, but not fully. So on one hand they want you to buy new, new stuff(no not a typo) .. but on the other hand they want you to buy new old stuff .. new old stuff = Fmount lenses possibly with the adapter.
In marketing terms, and in terms of trying to sell this at the retail 'coal face' is .. well doesn't look good.

eg. woman off the street comes into store: She has no idea on gear, she's not a gear geek like most of us here(ie. she's not the type to hang out in fora and discuss what works and what doesn't) she just has 10K to buy camera stuff for her new photography business!
Oh! Nikon have this small lightweight camera (Z things) and she wants some lenses. No problem you can start with 4 fairly mainstream lenses. Oh! I like to shoot little birdies too she says.
Err, no worries, we have a 180-400/4, a 400/2.8, 500/4 or 500 /5.6, 600 .... etc but it requires this adapter you need to buy for an additional $250(at some point in the future).
Adapter?, what adapter? why does something need an adapter. Do I have to adapt my stuff, why doesn't the other stuff I want require adapters. I'm not adept with adopting an adapter philosophy! .. these are probably all the thoughts running through her now confused mind.

Uncertainty breed anxiety(and or contempt). I'm not really trusting what they're doing at the moment. Actually haven't trusted that they know what they're doing for quite a while now!

They go on and on about how they've just sold over 100 million F mount lenses not long ago, and how the company is now 100+ years old .. etc. all this B.S talk of heritage, and yet they not really practising their preaching.
Nikon have always been a conservative company. Barely inventing anything of noteworthiness. But the one thing I've gathered was that they have a pretty much complete system, they built their reputation on this completeness of their system and durability.
Anyhow, just my opinion that they could have done better with respect to backward compatibility and living off the corpse that was once their 'heritage'.

I really don't know if your scenario is realistic at all. Someone off the street willing to spend $10k for a photography business and has no idea what to buy.

The way I see it is at least for the time being although Z-mount is the new, F-mount shouldn't be thought of as being old.
If you look at their Z-mount lineup, you'll notice every lens is the new S-line which is a higher bar of performance to clear than gold ring F-mounts supposedly.
Z-mount FX is not positioned as entry levels at all, price wise so buyers are likely to be clued up unless its a very well heeled beginner.
There may be future lower end Z-mounts with lenses that aren't in the S-line but not currently.

The way I view the Z6 and Z7 is that it is primarily catered to F-mount users as a companion mirrorless rather than models for people who want to completely switch to mirrorless. Not that they can't, but the Z-mount lenses lineup are just not there yet unless you specifically want just the first three lenses they've released.

If you look at the release schedule, the Z 24-70/2.8 S and Z 70-200/f2.8 S are coming next year and the current models are named Z6 and Z7. To me that says Z8 and Z9 are just around the corner perhaps coinciding with the D6 launch.
The Z6 and Z7 still feel a bit rushed to launch IMO and has many elements ported over from DSLRs. I feel these are transition products whereas a hypothetical Z8 and Z9 will be the start of the professional system for Nikon Z.

As for tele lenses, I think they will remain the domain of F-mount (inclusive of potential future F-mount mirrorless) until the Z-mount system has started to mature.

arthurking83

25-08-2018, 6:13pm

I really don't know if your scenario is realistic at all. Someone off the street willing to spend $10k ....

:D .. I should have used a cheesy :D after that psuedo scenario.

But the point made was that some lenses don't need adapters, and other lenses need adapters. To the uninitiated it'll come across as confusing.
Should be remembered that the vast majority of photography gear customers are like us, checking forums and discussing the merits of all this gear.

Too many times I remember when Nikon first came into the 135 format digital market and folks got into a D700, and were unsure if their Dx lenses would fit(physically) or whatever.

I reckon you're spot on re the target market on the Z6/7 too, and possible Z8/9 type higher end stuff coming later.
There's a lot of talk about the single card slot, whilst at the Z7 price range it seemingly makes no sense(think D850 level market), if they have plans for a Z8/9 level camera at an even higher price bracket, then the single card slot does make sense.

Additional:

I found (via NG) a link to a PDF doc from Nikon explaining some of their design choices for the new Z mount:

Mirrorless Reinvented (https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mdwZQz5w==/Misc/Z_Engineer_Interview_Brochure.pdf)

Warning** Marketing guff warning on a grand scale in the doc too(Am, you were warned! ;))

Interesting that they talk about a higher resolution future in there. ie. implying more Mp to come .. again Z8/9?

arthurking83

26-08-2018, 11:07am

Just downloaded some sample NEFs from the Z7.

IQ looks fine.
Hard to determine exact IQ yet as firmware are still all beta.

24-70/4 lens looks fine tho, too much movement in the 35/1.8 pics to tell if it's just movement or misfocus too.

One thing that's going to be hard to resist would be a Z camera + the 58/0.95 lens, but my prediction is that it's going to be a US$4K + lens, equating to about Au$5K. :(
So not really expecting to have that combo any time soon, unless one of my kids are open to the idea of a trade :D

as a side note to the new camera system Nikon have finally seen fit to reintroduce colour control points into Capture(NX-D).
bout bloody time!
Problem is I've already spent $s on DxO's software.
Not that I like CNX-D anyhow, it's still hopelessly slow on my PC(which I built a faster one in the hope it'd help) compared to CNX2.
I reckon I complained about 10x in the comments area of the website years back when Nikon first brought NX-D out.

So any non-Nikon users could try colour control point editing(on jpgs) for free, once it's out for download.

swifty

26-08-2018, 12:02pm

Errm, reports out of Tokyo is it’ll be in the vicinity of $6kUSD. It’s also MF only so it’l be a highly specialised lens that few will get to enjoy.

arthurking83

26-08-2018, 6:58pm

Errm, reports out of Tokyo is it’ll be in the vicinity of $6kUSD. ....

I'm usually generous with my over estimation of Nikon prices.

US $6K! :eek:

.. err, I'll have two please.

Bear Dale

27-08-2018, 9:17am

The one card slot seems to have all the pundits in a lather.

jim

27-08-2018, 9:39am

If you look at the release schedule, the Z 24-70/2.8 S and Z 70-200/f2.8 S are coming next year and the current models are named Z6 and Z7. To me that says Z8 and Z9 are just around the corner perhaps coinciding with the D6 launch.
The Z6 and Z7 still feel a bit rushed to launch IMO and has many elements ported over from DSLRs. I feel these are transition products whereas a hypothetical Z8 and Z9 will be the start of the professional system for Nikon Z.

I would have guessed that the Z6 and Z7 were the pro cameras (for now), and that the consumer Z3 and Z5 were just around the corner.

swifty

27-08-2018, 12:01pm

I'm usually generous with my over estimation of Nikon prices.

US $6K! :eek:

.. err, I'll have two please.

These have been announced as the pinnacle of the new S-line. Nikon, being an optics company and all most likely want to send a statement to companies like Zeiss and their Otus line. This is Nikon's Otus at f/0.95 and priced that way. At least it's still cheaper than the red dot ;)

- - - Updated - - -

If you look at the release schedule, the Z 24-70/2.8 S and Z 70-200/f2.8 S are coming next year and the current models are named Z6 and Z7. To me that says Z8 and Z9 are just around the corner perhaps coinciding with the D6 launch.
The Z6 and Z7 still feel a bit rushed to launch IMO and has many elements ported over from DSLRs. I feel these are transition products whereas a hypothetical Z8 and Z9 will be the start of the professional system for Nikon Z.

I would have guessed that the Z6 and Z7 were the pro cameras (for now), and that the consumer Z3 and Z5 were just around the corner.
Could be. But I don't see it that way from the way the roadmap's been released. All S-line and no consumer lenses. Remember even the f/1.8 primes are not consumer lenses looking at their touted performance from theoretical MTF graphs.

Personally I don't see the Z6 and Z7 as pro cameras at all, at least from a events professional's POV. My personal views are that these are mid and high end enthusiast models.

I think Nikon's biggest mistake thus far with the launch is not managing expectations and not clearly articulating who these models are targeted at and what they plan to release for other usages.
Well, there's at least one interview so far that has confirmed higher end Z cameras are coming.

Lance B

29-08-2018, 4:39pm

MattNQ

29-08-2018, 7:25pm

The one card slot seems to have all the pundits in a lather.Thom Hogan did an interesting piece on this. Though most wedding togs will still want two slots I imagine. The rest of us.... probably not so much.

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-card-failure-issue.html

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

arthurking83

29-08-2018, 10:53pm

Good article over at Imaging resources:
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q

Seems like the AF should be very good.

....

Actually, in this particular generation, sounds like the current gen DSLR will have the 'better' focus system overall. Obviously other than the advantages that the Z's eill have in terms of AF point coverage and number of points.
But the way the engineers were describing AF, it seems that the DLSRs have a small advantage overall.

Probably the most interesting part of the IR interview was that the Nikon guys claimed that the mighty sounding 58/0.95 Noct's large aperture is just the starting point of what they want to accomplish(in terms of large aperture lenses.

So, a 50/0.8 within the realm of a possibility too. Whether it would be manual focus or AF is the next guess.

As marketing propaganda, this is the kind of 'out there' engineering that helps to push products.

Nick Cliff

30-08-2018, 7:01am

I notice the award winning photographer Marsel van Oosten has been using the Z7 on Flickr, some of his photos are in this group if interested,
https://www.flickr.com/groups/nikonz/pool/

cheers Nick

swifty

30-08-2018, 12:42pm

Looking at the Z6 + FTZ + 24-70 myself but will likely wait til next year.

arthurking83

30-08-2018, 4:11pm

.... but will likely wait til next year.

Although they've got better ... probably a wise move considering Nikon's recent history :p
I'm just hoping that some stores will have a demo on the shelf to try one out before I commit myself.

I've recently been told of a nice little grip extension/QR mount plate that will solve the very likely grip issue I'll have.
Then it'll be a matter to be sure the EVF isn't as annoying as I'm expecting it to be. I could live with a slight annoyance, but not what I've found so far in the EVF cameras I've tried to date.

** which by the way doesn't include the A7RIII. The last Sony I had tried was the A7II, which has 60Hz refresh rate. Didn't realise that the A7RIII has a 120Hz refresh mode. I thought that was only on the A9.
That could be a factor.

Nick Cliff

30-08-2018, 6:20pm

Owning a nice Nikon lens collection this is the FF mirror-less camera I have been waiting for as it seemed a logical progression for Nikon.
Having said that there are sure to be a few problems initially crop up in software etc so am happy to let more more knowledgeable guys sort out any teething problems that could occur.
It would seem that using M4/3rds for macro photography and the Nikon mirror-less system for landscape photography could be a really appealing setup for many photographers.
Nikon's affordable classic landscape prime lenses should become even more popular now.
Nikon seems to have pulled the rabbit out of the hat with their new camera system with many predicting their demise a year ago, kudos.

Lance B

30-08-2018, 6:32pm

I have decided to get the Z7 and 24-70 as an *adjunct* to my D850. This way I can have the best of both worlds and ease myself into the Nikon mirrorless system. The D850 for all my fast moving subjects like birds, sports, wildlife and general photography etc. The Z7 for travel and also general photography like landscapes, cityscapes, portraiture etc. As a travel cam, the amount of weight saved means an extra lens or a larger lens than I would normally take. One thing that swayed me was the fact that the F mount lenses seem to work very well on this new camera and thus little to no loss of functionality, according to all those that have used it. The new Z mount opens up huge potential for better optics, especially sharpness and sharpness across the frame but also less aberrations as well. I think the new mount benefit is being lost a little in all the other hype. This is exciting times for Nikonians!

swifty

30-08-2018, 6:54pm

Although they've got better ... probably a wise move considering Nikon's recent history :p
I'm just hoping that some stores will have a demo on the shelf to try one out before I commit myself.

Actually my reasoning is more because I've already got the 28 f/1.4E penciled in as this year's buy.
If it doesn't happen then maybe the Z6 kit might come first.
But I'm hoping I can fit in a trip to Japan later this year, where I'm planning to buy the 28E as well as getting to play with the Z's in the Tokyo Electronic superstores :)

- - - Updated - - -

I have decided to get the Z7 and 24-70 as an *adjunct* to my D850. This way I can have the best of both worlds and ease myself into the Nikon mirrorless system. The D850 for all my fast moving subjects like birds, sports, wildlife and general photography etc. The Z7 for travel and also general photography like landscapes, cityscapes, portraiture etc. As a travel cam, the amount of weight saved means an extra lens or a larger lens than I would normally take. One thing that swayed me was the fact that the F mount lenses seem to work very well on this new camera and thus little to no loss of functionality, according to all those that have used it. The new Z mount opens up huge potential for better optics, especially sharpness and sharpness across the frame but also less aberrations as well. I think the new mount benefit is being lost a little in all the other hype. This is exciting times for Nikonians!
Me too, as in the Z-kit will be largely for travel as an adjunct to my DSLR system. It won't replace my DSLR which be replaced by another DSLR when my current one dies.

arthurking83

31-08-2018, 5:36am

....
It would seem that using M4/3rds for macro photography and the Nikon mirror-less system for landscape photography could be a really appealing setup for many photographers.
....

my two reasons for the Z camera are landscape and macro.
landscapes, because that's primarily what I do, and macro because I've found that bigger is usually better.
The only issue is that bigger is also harder, harder to maintain sharpness when magnification increases.

e-shutter(which I can get on the D850 anyhow) helps, and mirrorless just makes it less of a muck around in using Liveview mode on a DSLR.

Nick Cliff

31-08-2018, 7:02am

Arthur I agree it should be interesting to see re the macro bit particularly using the 58mm Primoplan lens in particular, as you say the viewfinder will be critical here,

cheers Nick

swifty

31-08-2018, 1:57pm

Speaking of macro, I think the new stepping motors (not necessarily a mirrorless thing although as far as I know all mirrorless lenses uses variations of these type of motors) will be great for automated stacking style of macros if that’s what you’re into.
Curiously there are no macros on the Z roadmap but the next rumoured lenses for F mount are macros. If it turns out to be true, I wonder whether these F-mount macros will be AF-P lenses (stepping motor).

arthurking83

31-08-2018, 5:10pm

.... the next rumoured lenses for F mount are macros. ... (stepping motor).

Hope so.
The one area that they've really neglected has been the macro lens area, at least for Fx format.

I've never been a fan of the 105VR, although it works awesome as a portrait lens. Far too much fringing for a macro lens.
And the 200/4 is old ... older than Moses!
Really weird to not have seen an update to that lens for however many years it's been.

richardb

07-09-2018, 11:29pm

Will see it at the Fotokina fair in Cologne, 100km from my home. September 26-29
Btw, I've my own ideas : If it has to be compact and mirrorless, why not the already succesful brands; Fujifilm, Sony :nod::nod::nod:

jim

08-09-2018, 12:31am

Hope so.
The one area that they've really neglected has been the macro lens area, at least for Fx format.

I've never been a fan of the 105VR, although it works awesome as a portrait lens. Far too much fringing for a macro lens.
And the 200/4 is old ... older than Moses!
Really weird to not have seen an update to that lens for however many years it's been.

The 200/4 might be old but I'd like to see how they could improve it. It's damn near perfect.

Lance B

05-10-2018, 11:55am

Picked up my Z7 kit on Wednesday afternoon late and have really had little time to take photos. The kit is thr Z7 + 24-70 f4s and FTZ adaptor. All I have been able to do so far is to set the camera up similarly to how my D850 is set up and play with the AF with the native 24-70 f4s lens and a few of the F mount lenses with the FTZ adaptor. The AF speed is very good, probably as fast as the D810 but not like the lighting fast D850 and I never thought it would be as the D850 is simply a stunning AFing camera. However, the AF like the D810 means that it is still excellent and F mount lenses with the FTZ adaptor work just as well. I must say am very impressed with the AF, much better than I had anticipated. Build quality is excellent, it's a solid little thing and imparts confidence. The camera feels good in the hands and is comfortable to hold and operate, but still getting used to how it works. The good thing is that the menu etc are very much like all Nikons which means it is easy to navigate. The 24-70 lens is sharp, and focuses down to 300mm and thus can be almost like a macro! Overall IQ looks great and similar to the D850 as you would expect as it is similar Mp to the D850 and has the same pedigree.

For me, the Z7 is an adjunct to my D850 not a replacement as the D850 is for my birding and fast action camera. However, the Z7 could basically do everything else and all in a package that is half the weight of the D850 and still be able to use all my Nikon F mount lenses. As a travel camera and general purpose camera, it will fit the bill perfectly. A few months back I was considering a Fuji X-T2 or X-H1 and lenses as a travel alternative and to take on my recent trip to China in order to save weight and room and I asked MissionMan for his thoughts on that system, which he kindly gave some excellent advice - thank you once again, MM. However, Nikon then announced the Z7 and I decided to wait and see what they had to offer and I am glad they did as the Z7 is simply perfect for my requirements and I don't have to buy a new kit of lenses! I ended up taking the D850 and lenses to China and even though it was a heavy and large kit, it paid dividends, the results are excellent.

In a nutshell so far, the Z7 is simply a great little camera and is much better than I had anticipated and will do everything that I was hoping it could do.

Jorge Arguello

12-10-2018, 12:12pm

Well, I al glad to read you are happy with it. Enjoy it, and hope to see photos soon. :camera:

Lance B

21-10-2018, 1:58pm

A few more thoughts on my Z7 for those interested.

After just over two weeks of use, I am even more impressed by the Z7. As I stated in the previous post about the Z7, it is not a replacement for my insanely good D850 for action, the AF of which is just incredible. However, the Z7's AF is no slouch and even with all my F mount lenses they all work pretty much flawlessly. The lenses I have and thus tested are, 16-35 f4 VR, 24-70 f2.8E VR, 70-200 f2.8E FL VR, 80-400 f4.5-5.6G VR, 20 f1.8G, 24 f1.4G, 105 f2.8 Micro, 105 f1.4E, 400 f2.8E FL VR and 500 f5.6 PF. They all focus on normal subject matter on the Z7 at within about a 0-10% envelope faster or slower than on the D850. Interestingly, the 20 f1.8, 24 f1.4, 70-200, 80-400 all seem to focus a tad faster on the Z7 than on the D850! The others are about the same except the 500 f5.6 PF may be a tad slower. I think some get a little caught up in the AF speed debate and may equate the smoothness and lack of noise of the Z7 to appear as though it is slower than the less smooth and a little more noisy D850 which gives the audible signs that focus has been achieved. As there are no cross type AF sensors for the OSPDAF for the F mount lenses, you need to make sure you are focusing on something with vertical contrast in order to get quick focus and this may require a small focus recompose in some instances but generally it is never a problem. The OSCDAF using the dedicated Z mount lenses is also fast and accurate. For all but the most demanding fast moving AF applications, the Z7 handles it all very well.

The new Z mount promised to deliver exceptional IQ with the dedicated Z mount lenses due to the larger throat diameter and the very short mount to sensor distance. So far, using the 24-70 f4s and 35 f1.8s lenses it is delivering on that promise. Sharpness is amazing especially the zoom which has amazing sharpness for a zoom and even for a prime, with incredibly low CA and other aberrations - all part of the promised benefit of the new mount. The 35 f1.8s is at least as sharp wide open as the acclaimed Sigma 35 f1.4 Art wide open but is sharper across the frame as well. Stopped down, things get even better.

Output of the 46Mp sensor is similar to that of the D850 IQ. In other words, stunning. Not much to say here other than what you see with the output of the D850 is basically exactly the same as with the Z7.

IBIS, is a great benefit and in conjunction with the VR in some of the Nikon lenses gives up to 5 stops of vibration reduction depending on circumstances.

Build quality is excellent, it really feels beautifully built and solid as a rock and all the dials and button operations have a quality feel to them. Menu is similar to the D850 so, it took me no time to set up and be under way. There are a few new things that need to be learnt and new ways to achieve specific goals, but this is just part of the learning experience with a mirrorless camera. There are features that can be utilised with an EVF that you do not have on a DSLR with OVF. Things like zooming in on the VF image and what overlays can be employed on the EVF image etc. Speaking of EVF, this is one area of mirrorless I was never a fan of, but the EVF of the Z7 is simply incredible. Clear, brilliant quality, basically no jitter or lag when panning and lots of info.

The single card slot is a non issue for me as I *never* ever used the second card in my D850 for back up and only for overflow and that never occurred anyway!

Battery life is well understated by CIPA. I can easily get over 1000 photos out of a battery charge with normal use and even if I do run out, it is a simple 30 second task to swap it for a back up battery.

So, all in all I believe it is a fantastic little camera and it is way better than I had ever anticipated, especially the AF and EVF.

A variety of images from my first few weeks with the Z7:

Z7 + 400 f2.8E FL VR + 1.4x TCIII, 1/200s f/4.0 at 560.0mm iso1250

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168218971/original.jpg

Z7 + 70-200 f2.8E FL VR, 1/100s f/4.0 at 190.0mm iso90

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168245410/original.jpg

Z7 + 500 f5.6 PF VR, 1/200s f/5.6 at 500.0mm iso900

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168245405/original.jpg

Z7 + 35 f1.8s, 1/320s f/8.0 at 35.0mm iso100

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168289493/original.jpg

Z7 + 35 f1.8s, 1/250s f/2.8 at 35.0mm iso64

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168253420/original.jpg

Z7 + 24-70 f4s, 1/160s f/8.0 at 24.0mm iso64

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168280744/original.jpg

Z7 + 500 f5.6 PF VR, 1/250s f/5.6 at 500.0mm iso72

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168288253/original.jpg

Z7 + 24-70 f4s, 1/500s f/8.0 at 47.0mm iso64

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b/image/168288720/original.jpg

Bear Dale

21-10-2018, 5:07pm

Nice write up Lance on the Z7, I've been following your comments over at DPR and Fred Miranda.......little bit jealous of your new 500mm :)

Lance B

21-10-2018, 10:58pm

Nice write up Lance on the Z7, I've been following your comments over at DPR and Fred Miranda.......little bit jealous of your new 500mm :)

Yeah, that 500 PF is a little gem. :)

Glenda

22-10-2018, 7:34am

Sounds amazing Lance and some excellent photos to show of its (and your) capabilities. I think I'll have to wait until its price comes down - a lot :D

Mary Anne

22-10-2018, 10:51am

Glad to read you are happy with your new camera lance and enjoying it, these are wonderful images :2encou:
And Thank You for Sharing.

torro

26-11-2018, 10:35am

Lance B

30-11-2018, 3:02pm

Hi Lance, when I first bought the d800 I didn't get many sharp photos until I improved my technique re holding camera etc. I found that over time this improved and overcame this issue. I'm wondering with the TZ 7 having a higher resolution is this going to be a major concern still. With the 5-axis in-body image stabilisation does this help. Thanks for your post re the new camera,
cheers
chris

Hi Chris. A couple of things with the D800. One was the less than impressive AF and two the high resolution meant that to get the most out of it, you *may* need to up your camera technique, generally shutter speed. By this I mean that when viewed at the same viewing size of a lower Mp camera, the D800 won't look any *worse*. So, if you have a 20Mp camera and the D800 comparing at say the size of a standard computer screen, then the same technique applied to both cameras will mean that the D800 shouldn't look worse for camera shake. However, if you want to be able to display the D800 at full resolution, ie pixel level, then you *may* need to up the shutter speed to ensure that you get the sharpest results more often. Either that or have better handholding techniques. However, I have found that much of the time with my D810 and now my D850 (even higher Mp of 46Mp), I still manage to get superb results even at the old 1/focal length rule of thumb, and with a VR lens, even much lower with subjects that do remain perfectly still.

The Z7 is a different beast as it does have IBIS and that helps very much with stationary subject matter. Not only that, but the AF *accuracy* seems to actually be a tad better than with a DSLR, even better than that of the D850 which has phenomenal AF tracking ability and general speed. The on sensor AF does seem to be a better bet than the old separate AF module for DSLR's. Whatever the case, IBIS is a real boon for these high Mp cameras.

Had a quick look at your Flickr images. Superb photos and some very exotic places you have visited! :th3: You now have another follower. :)