Bad judging costing me competition wins

[MissionMan]

As a longstanding member of Ausphoto, I have slowly become disillusioned by what can only be described as second rate judging on the weekly and monthly competitions.

Photography is an art and art requires real critics, not rank amateurs. Sadly Ausphotography is filled with beginners and allowing beginners to judge competitions is a really bad decision.

Rational thinking dictates that letting people judge on competitions that they aren’t qualified to judge can only result in competition outcomes that are skewed in favour of entries which look good rather than entries which require real skill and talent. How are beginners supposed to judge when they don’t even understand the basic rules of composition and when it’s okay to break them.

I know that some people think it’s in the interests of helping beginners, but providing outcomes which are wrong distort the beginners view of what creates a good photo and only results in a false sense of achievement for those who win.

Leaving the judging up to beginners is unfortunately not the right solution. Beginners are beginners, they shouldn’t be judges if they don’t know what constitutes a good photo.

Frankly, I’m getting to a point where I think that beginners should be limited to only judging beginner comps and perhaps we should limit the beginners to only entering one competition per month so users on the site can focus their attention on judging real photos and not snapshots that look more at home on Facebook.

Outcomes of competitions will always continue to skewed by this poor judging if we continue in this way and I think Ausphotography has to deal with this reality sooner rather than later.

On the surface, involving the beginners may seem like a good idea, but poor judging deprives the quality photographers like myself of the wins we so richly deserve.

Let’s leave the photography to real photographer and let the beginners stick to forums for feedback until they get better and learn how to get out of P mode. Find out what that M means on your camera and then come speak to me.

Sorry about my rant but it’s just 1 of those days.

[bcys1961]

I agree with much of this , except for one thing. I'm the one that should be winning all the comps - not you!

(And I'll call this out as an April Fool post - hopefully???).

[Dug]

I could not agree more.

There should also be a separate competition for full frame cameras because they have an unfair advantage.
Also cameras with more than 22 mega pixels should be ineligible for the same reason.

This is a serious oversite and needs to be rectified.

[Mathy]

Hmmm, I'm hoping it's an April Fool's comment …..

[ricktas]

Geez MM, say it like it is. :D

[arthurking83]

I agree with everything you say MM ... with one or two exceptions.

1. Judging is not second rate.
2. Photography started with rank amateurs, they are the lifeblood of, and what makes photography dynamic
3. I've seen too many serious flaws in comps to rely on the opinions and judgements of 'so called experts' to tell me what's good or not.(yay! to people power)
4. Beginners need all the encouragement they can get. if that means pandering to their sensitivities a little to begin with, then so be it. In the long run it all works itself out and those beginners do eventually get it right, and subsequently turn on the very group from which they came.
5. As for beginners judging beginner comps(or not) .. makes no difference really. In the end we're all just beginners to a certain degree. Even these so called pros pushing some pseudo fabrication known as boundaries and envelopes. the notion that they are pushing these boundaries implies that they themselves are beginners(just slightly more advanced than a newcomer camera operator type beginner).
6. Why pick on the beginners? Failure of ones own 'product' comes from within. Even if all your comp images won every single time they were entered in their respective fields .... in a way they still would have failed in some small part.

For example: lets say your images won every time you entered one. By your own admission in this thread, you would actually have failed! Being judged by this group of newbies, that you have just attacked .. had they won, they would have done so at the hands of the group you so vehemently distrust as the judgement group!
A win in this instance therefore translates into a failure on a large scale.

On the other hand, having not won the comps you so desperately wanted too, makes those entries the real winners. Failure in this case has netted you the prize!


on reflection, looking back on what I just said here, I seem to have disagreed with you on more than 1 or 2 points ..... more like 6 or so points which made up the vast majority of your gripes against beginners.
So in reality I must therefore disagree wholeheartedly with all your points, even tho I believe that I initially came into this thread 2/3rds fully in support of your arguments against.


ps. hope your day gets better! :p

[Jim560]

MM. Did you get out of the wrong side of your bed today? Maybe even the wrong bed??

Beginners like myself have a place here. How am I supposed to get feedback on my work without sites such as this? As for judging your photos, well what makes them better than mine? You know what is the norm and the correct composition etc, what is wrong with challenging that thought process? Is that because you conform to the norm? Is the norm the right way to do it? Just because people with a different label to myself say that is how it should be done?

Just my thoughts, hope your not so grumpy at work!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nick Cliff]

MM it is good you are competitive, perhaps there is a place for a special judging panel for your level of photography. I had an interesting discussion with an evolving photographer who wanted to be able to take great photos essentially with a minimum of mental effort, which in our busy lives is understandable. So I have come to the conclusion that it is like learning and playing a musical instrument can give you a greater appreciation of a truly great performance.

By the way I feel to win a competition my dream photo would be of a frog on a waterlily flower would be a lay down misere.

For today I was wondering Rick if there is any truth to the disturbing rumour that Rupert has made an offer to buy the rights to Ausphotography for an undisclosed sum.

[AstonKemp]

Hmm! Very rare for someone who didnt win to agree with the judge. Hope your day gets better :p

[MissionMan]

Hey Jim.

The challenge is simple. 20 beginners vote for a photo that's crap because it has something cool they like in it like freezing motion. Photo wins because there are lots of beginners voting. Beginners perception of what constitutes a best photo is warped and once they can replicate said photo they consider themselves to be awesome and start doing weddings etc. Thats scary because that's what they do. They win one comp on Ausphotography and suddenly they're leaving work to become a photographer because they got lucky with the voting.

I think the current social media trend with beginners is all about instant gratification and this is perpetuated by digital. Beginners like instant gratification, they like instant recognition but it's not necessarily right. You go out take a photo, look on the back and think you've got a good photo. With film you had to take 50 photos of a scene to make sure you got it right because you didn't know what it looked like. How many beginners switch their display to black and white when they're shooting black and white. They don't. They shoot colour and the say "oh, this might work as black and white". When you shot black and white on film you we're committed to it the moment you put the film in the camera so you had to think black and white.

[feathers]

is it 12noon yet:scrtch:

[Filter]

Still time for a few more bites.....Just remember to kiss & release...lol

[MissionMan]

Yup, it was an April fools.

If you look at the first letter of every paragraph, it spells April fools. Damn people on this site are too on the ball. Was hoping to sucker in some responses :)

Maybe I should have put in something about how mirrorless aren't real cameras :p

[auz80]

Thanks for the best laugh I've had to day :D I tried to read your post and all that followed to my wife but it was hard to see the screen through the tears :lol:

Cheers, Don

[Nick Cliff]

MM you put on a great performance, you are a good sport.

[Mark L]

On the other hand (now that it's later in the day), how do we get more beginners to enter comps and generally participate here without them feeling their beginners status disqualifies their view on things?
Possible new thread for someone to start.

[peter1929]

Love it ,Nice

[Elly]

On the other hand (now that it's later in the day), how do we get more beginners to enter comps and generally participate here without them feeling their beginners status disqualifies their view on things?
Possible new thread for someone to start.

I'm so going to ignore the fact that at first I was sitting here, mouth agape thinking .. well, very unpleasant thoughts ... so onto your question/ponder Mark ... I don't claim to be speaking for all beginners or any other beginners .. but for myself ... I think it is a matter of confidence in what we're doing and "seeing" the results of practice ... I struggle with that a lot, I mean ... as for one of the lovely April fools points up there, I do shoot with the magical M and I see the differences from when I was not even on P .. but on the dreaded Auto .. oh judge all you like :) ... but I'm not delusional .. I don't have FB, so I can't compare, but I'd like to think they are marginally better than your average snaps .. but competition worthy? No .. I know I'm a beginner. So ultimately I guess it comes down to a confidence thing .. when you can move past that beginner thinking and start daring to dwell where those with more experience do with absolute confidence .. because they've been taking photos since forever.

[bcys1961]

You have to start somewhere . My first competition entry on this site, as a beginner, got less than 5/10 came last and made me think Hmmmmm ..so I have to improve. So I set about doing that and over time you improve . Then I won a few beginners comps , started to regularly make the top 4 , won a few more , got upgraded to intermediate , started to get scored of 6 , 7 ....won a few more and so on.

(Then it all came crashing down as Rick upgraded me to Advanced and I hardly ever make the top 4 now. Oh well ...need to try harder!)

Start in the beginners comps. So what if you come last ! No one comes to your house to laugh at you! Look , learn , read books , ask questions and guaranteed you won't come last forever.

[MattNQ]

MM , your problem is that you need to take better photos if you want to win comps!

Get rid of that D750 & get a mirrorless. Your gear is holding you back.

(we still have 3 minutes left :lol: I use the whole day!)

[Mathy]

I'm so going to ignore the fact that at first I was sitting here, mouth agape thinking .. well, very unpleasant thoughts ... so onto your question/ponder Mark ... I don't claim to be speaking for all beginners or any other beginners .. but for myself ... I think it is a matter of confidence in what we're doing and "seeing" the results of practice ... I struggle with that a lot, I mean ... as for one of the lovely April fools points up there, I do shoot with the magical M and I see the differences from when I was not even on P .. but on the dreaded Auto .. oh judge all you like :) ... but I'm not delusional .. I don't have FB, so I can't compare, but I'd like to think they are marginally better than your average snaps .. but competition worthy? No .. I know I'm a beginner. So ultimately I guess it comes down to a confidence thing .. when you can move past that beginner thinking and start daring to dwell where those with more experience do with absolute confidence .. because they've been taking photos since forever.

Elly, you're right about the confidence thing. However, the best way to gain knowledge and confidence is to have a go. For example, is the pic that's your Avatar taken by you? If so, I find it very interesting. If not, then it says to me that you like a quirky image with great colours. Whatever it is, that's a part of you, that you would bring to images that you take :)

The weekly comps are great for learning. The topic comes out on a Sunday and you can set yourself a challenge to learn something about the techniques required and have a go at shooting it, then entering it. Entering a comp gives you some feedback, and there's nothing to stop you from putting the image into the 'New to Photography' forum for CC after the comp, if you want to learn how it could have been improved. THe comps are a great way of putting some specific structure into your learning, and if weekly is too time compressed, then Monthly is also a good option.

This image won me the Beginners section of a weekly comp (after many tries at different themes). I researched how to photograph 'burning ice' using the web, bought myself the necessary ingredients (ice and isopropyl alcohol - should have added a fire extinguisher!) and experimented until I got something I liked, then I did some post processing. I don't have super fancy gear or lighting, other than a basic flash (which wasn't used). Probably a tripod is the most important thing you could buy. Every week I'd have a go and I learnt an enormous amount in that time.

116125

The comps are a great way to focus on technique and embed learning, have a go, no-one is going to say anything nasty, or mark you as 'rubbish'. You'll most likely enjoy the experience, cheers Deb

[Elly]

Hi Mathy ... yes, the straws is mine, one of my first images I took creatively in manual mode, I wanted to do something different than landscapes to see if I could.


Thank you for all your advice .. I still don't know if I'd ever enter a competition, that really isn't part of my personality, but it seems to be a part of photography. I've like most of the planet, always just clicked away on a camera, but as for taking photos with the frame of mind of just happy snap ... having the SLR (even if it is a mirrorless) and using it in manual mode and learning new techniques, is very new to me .. infact, only 10 weeks new to me. I got the camera for Christmas and just completed a course so I knew how to use some of the functions, well how to come off auto and use it manually. Which I'll say is the best thing I've ever done. I am falling in love with the whole process of photography .. I've always had an interest, but never did anything about it and now wish I had years ago .. anyhow, better late than never.


So perhaps I need to try and step out of my comfort zone at some point and try a competition purely for the learning experience, I have no desire to be winning .. okay that sounds weird, of course everyone wants to win, but that isn't a driving factor for me .. I'd happily just post in the CC section only and get feedback that way, but if I have to do other things to learn and improve, I must adapt I guess.

And WOW to that burning ice .. that is fantastic!!

http://36.media.tumblr.com/75b55461233609ff52865f3fe6f01ea4/tumblr_nkh05qsjfE1u3p2sco1_1280.jpg

[geoffsta]

Sorry... But I'm a wee bit offended by the opening post. Even if a April fools joke...
What if a beginner reads this in a months time, and only gets half way through it....... I know I'd be saying "F**k this lot"
Ausphotography is the only place I put images in for competitions for the simple reason that it is judged by my peers, and from those with similar interests... And only because I owe this site a lot from the friendships developed, and the assistance to get were I am today.

Sorry MM, but I find this totally inappropriate and demeaning to all concerned...

[Filter]

Hi Elly, just to add to this topic. I am struggling to come to terms with the word "competition", as a beginner it may or may not equate to failure in some peoples eyes. Not here, here as I have seen, it equates to a "try". The process of the "competition" is for the artist, to better yourself. This coming from a member that has not entered a comp yet...lol. Part of my "beginner" issue is not being creative, you seem to have that as part of your style, I reckon that's 75% of a good photo there. I'd love to live near a water fall or running water, even the city to try out some long exposure shots. I have to get out there and find it all I guess. Good luck with it all, happy "M" snapping.

[MissionMan]

I think beginners probably find the competitions a little intimidating. It's a little like coming last in a race, nobody wants to be at the back and seen to be at the back.

I think they forget about the fact that nobody really looks through the list and says "oh, john came last", they generally browse through the top couple of entries. On a personal level, I generally look, see how my pictured ranked and who won and try to make a mental note of what I can learn from the winner.

Perhaps one way to make it easier for beginners to enter comps is to leave the entries as annonymous so that when the outcome is announced, they only know who the winner or the top 4 entries were. That way, people may feel that they can enter photos annonymously without the concern of being publicly ridiculed or seen as being at the bottom of the list. The reality is no one here will redicule publicly but that doesn't take away the concern from beginners.

The other thing I really liked were the formal reviews. I.e. when they had a professional go through the photos and talk about what the did and didn't like about them. I think it was good way to hear feedback on how someone looked at the images and I think it may be worth consider for monthly or quarterly comps in future.

[Elly]

That is possibly true for the majority of people, the concern of being ridiculed, but even anonymously I'd not be so inclined, I guess I'm just wired differently. For me, ideally I'd love to be learning one on one with someone. I've done a course and loved it, but now I'm left to my own devices really. 8 lessons isn't a lot .. though I did learn a lot. So my choices now are university learning or paying for more courses that pretty much cover what I've already learned. Finding something middle ground is proving to be really difficult. So though while entering competitions would definitely have the benefit of feedback one way or the other, I'd prefer in all honesty, to be actually learning. Not online courses, but hands on with someone, but that is just not a reality.

This site is wonderful, besides your very good April Fool joke that had me reeling to begin with ... there isn't ridicule here, there is a lot of positive feedback for all levels of experience, so I applaud the site hugely for having such a standard. So for me, it is something I need to work out for myself on how I wish to move forward in whatever manner to achieve what I desire to learn.

[MissionMan]

Hi Elly

I've found that some of the online videos are pretty good for extending your knowledge in particular areas, although they do rely on you seeking knowledge in a particular area. I.e. off camera flash, sports, macro, composition, etc. Even a wedding photography video can be valuable because the learnings apply to portraits in general.

The other thing I found which has been valuable is looking at particular types of photos I would like to emulate, trying to understand how they achieved the photo and then going out and trying it. At first it may seem like copying and your first image may be, but ultimately what you learn from it is the application of a skill you can use elsewhere and in a very short period of time, you find yourself willing to experiment with it in other areas. If you take the straw example above, in learning how to take a photo of straws, you don't just learn to take photos of straws, you understand how lighting applies to objects that are transparent, how the shadows apply, where to positioning lighting, what happens when you position them in the wrong place, how depth of field applies etc.

I can also recommend any of the photography walks or group events. What I found interesting is having 10 photographers in the same location can result in 10 completely different photos and it gives you insight into how someone else's mind works with the same environment. You take a photo of a couple with something if the background and someone else will take a photo of the same couple at a different angle and change the entire dimension.

[Analog6]

Well, I've never won a comp here either, mate, or been placed and I've been on here a lot longer than you. We just have to suck it up. If you don't like the judging then don't enter - you know how it's going to be judged before you enter. It's the old 'buyer beware'.

[MissionMan]

Well, I've never won a comp here either, mate, or been placed and I've been on here a lot longer than you. We just have to suck it up. If you don't like the judging then don't enter - you know how it's going to be judged before you enter. It's the old 'buyer beware'.

I think you missed the part about it being an April fools post. We're now talking about ways to get beginners more involved in comps :)

[yummymummy]

Dude... buy a Canon, you'll start winning *tongue planted firmly in cheek * ;)

[MissionMan]

Dude... buy a Canon, you'll start winning *tongue planted firmly in cheek * ;)

Canon? I'm too good for Canon. I've reached the limitations of their equipment last year when I managed to take a photo one handed of an entire tribe in the amazon from 3m away using only a 5D mk2, a 400mm lens and a piece of clear glass while simultaneously defending myself against an army of soldier ants.

Last year, Canon came to me and asked me what I needed from them to switch back to Canon. I said a 50MP camera with a 10fps shutter speed and an 11-24 lens. They only delivered on two of them so I stayed with Nikon and I still have the apology letter.

[ricktas]

Dude... buy a Canon, you'll start winning *tongue planted firmly in cheek * ;)

best post for this April Fools day thread! :p

[Dug]

Canon? I'm too good for Canon. I've reached the limitations of their equipment last year when I managed to take a photo one handed of an entire tribe in the amazon from 3m away using only a 5D mk2, a 400mm lens and a piece of clear glass while simultaneously defending myself against an army of soldier ants.

Last year, Canon came to me and asked me what I needed from them to switch back to Canon. I said a 50MP camera with a 10fps shutter speed and an 11-24 lens. They only delivered on two of them so I stayed with Nikon and I still have the apology letter.

Gosh, that's amazing.

re Canon
50mp without 10 fps, what a joke.
They should reimburse you for time waisting as well.

[JoPho]

Rick could put some of the regulars who regularly enter advanced and always lose back to beginner! ;)

[MattNQ]

Canon? I'm too good for Canon. I've reached the limitations of their equipment last year when I managed to take a photo one handed of an entire tribe in the amazon from 3m away using only a 5D mk2, a 400mm lens and a piece of clear glass while simultaneously defending myself against an army of soldier ants.

Last year, Canon came to me and asked me what I needed from them to switch back to Canon. I said a 50MP camera with a 10fps shutter speed and an 11-24 lens. They only delivered on two of them so I stayed with Nikon and I still have the apology letter.


The surprise new D5 was made especially for MM.
He's really "The Rig" :D

Digital REV review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXKTLG31Ky8)

[MissionMan]

The surprise new D5 was made especially for MM.
He's really "The Rig" :D

Digital REV review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXKTLG31Ky8)

iI'mm not supposed to admit it but I was the camera stig in that video

[MattNQ]

iI'mm not supposed to admit it but I was the camera stig in that video

We won't tell anyone....