D800 - d800e

[Roosta]

Ok, whats the difference between the 800 and the 800E?

going by this Compar (http://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=nikon_d800&products=nikon_d800e)o, nothing. Just curious as I see some have the 800 listed and some 800E in their Signature.

Cheers,

[ameerat42]

What? Nuffin? Of course there is. Doesn't the -E version have the anti-aliasing filter removed?
(With butter on the muffin!)
:rolleyes:m.

[I @ M]

The D800 E has the anti ailising filter removed / strength reduced which allows the sensor to resolve finer detail.

Have a look at a comparison here (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/22) Roosta.

[Roosta]

Ok then, so why have both models?

If the E can get better resolution, both cameras where released at the same time, but a couple of Hundred dollars difference, I can't see a need for the non E then.

Just seems strange, as in, if Canon say had done similar with the 5D MK 111.

Was it aimed at a different market? or just from development feedback through the early stages?

[ameerat42]

...Ok then, so why have both models?...

It's plain: Some people swear by them, others swear at them!

Just to add, it's the "moire pattern" that some people swear at. The by-swearers insist it's negligible.

[Roosta]

Ok, page 3 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/3) sort of nailed it for me.

It's more aimed at the humble Landscape or studio tog's.

- - - Updated - - -


It's plain: Some people swear by them, others swear at them!

I'm sure this is not just common to Nikon mate. LOL - Although?

[I @ M]

Yep, you found the reasons with the moire / detail battle. There have been many many posts on the web from people claiming that they can get the same sharpness from a "non E" body without the risk of moire and then again plenty of examples where "non E" bodies exhibit some moire as well.

Suffice to say, pixel peepers will always peep and people with "lesser" cameras will keep taking excellent images. :D


Just seems strange, as in, if Canon say had done similar with the 5D MK 111.

Not strange at all, if they did then they would have to bring out an entirely new range of lenses to keep up with the body, or maybe just start supplying Sigma optics with each body ------ :p

[mongo]

Its Mongo's understanding (and he is far from certain about this- and maybe wrong) that the D800E still has a form of anti ailising filter but has a way of effectively neutralising its effects. Not sure if this is done by the modified nature of the filter or if it is done by programming. Its Mongo's further understanding that following the results with the D800E that when Nikon designed the the D7100, it decided to do so without the anti ailising filter installed at all. Thus, the D7100 may be the first Nikon without an anti ailising filter.

If Mongo had his time all over again, he would have would have taken the D800E instead now that the moire concerns seem not to have eventuated. The tests Mongo has seen make the E model a tiny bit sharper but nothing to concern yourselves about.

More than agree with Andrew that we fuss too much about having a camera with an extra 1.5% extra capability in its specs than going out to take good images with the equipment we have that is more than fine. The differences are often so small, that we could easily make up/overcome them with the press of a button in post processing most of the time !!

[arthurking83]

There are plentiful images available for download to see for yourself the difference between the two cameras ability.

As already said, the difference is very minimal anyhow, but my belief is that you can sharpen the D800 image to the same level as that achievable by the D800E.

That is, I've seen that the D800E images have the ability to take sharpening up to a certain point(before artifacts set in) .. but that the D800E can accept a slightly higher level of sharpening again .. rendering the D800 image damned near identical to the D800E anyhow.

The theory is tho, that the E can actually capture finer detail, that the D800 is not able to actually capture.

Mongo is right about the actual AA filter. Where the D800 has a filter that does split the light forming beams with it's secondary low pass filter(and so create a small amount of blur), the secondary LP filter in the D00E apparently reforms this light beam back into a homogenous one instead(hence a sharper definition).
But between them too is the actual difference in hardware. Between the two low pass filters is a wave plate(in the D800) or straight up optical glass(D800E).

No software used to differentiate the two(apparently).

But in saying this, Nikon did issue two separate firmwares for the D800 series, therefore indicating that there is some software difference between the two.
This could be something as simple as differing sharpening routines in the Picture Control settings .. or even something as simple as the hex value dictating the camera model name!
(who knows).

Whilst sharpening is generally considered to be an advantageous step in your workflow, it is in fact a slightly destructive process too.
You just don't see this in normal every day usage. But it's destructive ability can be seen on images captured in marginal situations.
eg. high ISO, low light .. where adding sharpening to an image shot at very high ISO increases noise in the image. If the image is sharper to begin with(as you would expect in the D800E) then less sharpening is required on this marginally shot image. I suppose this is where the theory comes into play .. but I'm yet to see this in the real world myself.
Maybe one day tho.

D800 is a damned good camera, and if the OP is considering it as a recommendation to someone, that someone will not be disappointed.

[Sifor]

I've got the standard version. I guess for most of us it comes down to whether you want to spend the $300 or so extra to get the absolute sharpest possible image. Talking pure numbers, the ~10% increase in price does not deliver 10% more detailed/sharper image...

[ameerat42]

I've got the standard version. I guess for most of us it comes down to whether you want to spend the $300 or so extra to get the absolute sharpest possible image. Talking pure numbers, the ~10% increase in price does not deliver 10% more detailed/sharper image...

Ascertained by...? Have you let Nikon know?
Am.

[arthurking83]

Yeah, I reckon Sirfor is probably right. That $300 or so extra is easily spendable on more important gear.

Only reason I got the E was because that's all the shop had in stock at the time I went in.
If I had my choice over again and the choice was for either .. I'd have gone with the non E version too.
Pull out the AA filter bit that makes the difference and you have an E(if you like) .. but still with a $300 saving.

[Sifor]

Ascertained by...? Have you let Nikon know?
Am.

?

Seems to be a number a lot throw around. Mongo above said 1.5%....we all have different perceptions of the difference in quality between the two. Someone might say 1%, another 10% and another again 30%. Maybe my words "does not" were a little absolute for your liking?

Fact is, yes the E version is sharper. Question really becomes do you value and/or require the additional sharpness it has to offer? The insane resolution of both cameras is already enough to satisfy the pixel peeper's hunger and I personally wanted to pocket the $300 for other stuff ;)

[Roosta]

Canon users have the '1' envy and looks like Nikon has the 'E' envy. LOL

The DP review makes for some very interesting reading on the models, but I think in the hands of a everyday user, it would be overkill to a greater extent, as they'd be more inclined to sharpen the image in PP to make up for exposure in-correctness.

Anyway, now I know.

Thanks all.

[I @ M]

Canon users have the '1' envy and looks like Nikon has the 'E' envy.

Does that mean that Pentax owners have the 'P' envy? :rolleyes:

[mongo]

?

Seems to be a number a lot throw around. Mongo above said 1.5%....we all have different perceptions of the difference in quality between the two. Someone might say 1%, another 10% and another again 30%. Maybe my words "does not" were a little absolute for your liking?

Fact is, yes the E version is sharper. Question really becomes do you value and/or require the additional sharpness it has to offer? The insane resolution of both cameras is already enough to satisfy the pixel peeper's hunger and I personally wanted to pocket the $300 for other stuff ;)

Mongo did not intend the 1.5% to be taken literally - it is not intended as a measure of the difference between the two cameras. It is merely to indicate how trivial the difference can sometimes be and how silly it might be to be fussed over these trivialities instead of just getting on with it and using your equipment to take good photos to the best of it's and our ability generally. The comment is also meant to indicate that even if the differences do exist, they can are sometimes so trivial that they are easily over come in any event in post processing - so why worry about them to begin with ??

Having seen the different results form the two cameras, if Mongo had to put a percentage difference in sharpness, he would put it at less than 5% as a educated estimate. It was just noticeable but not overly significant. However, as Arthur says (which Mongo was not aware of), the E model has more limitations than the non-E model when it comes to sharpening. So, potentially, for all practicable purposes, they may well be roughly equal at the end of the day or certainly not enough to make a fuss over. Mongo suspects that in the future, as this idea of the anti ailising feature is experimented with by manufacturers, those differences may grow to a point where the difference may be worth considering. At present , the D800 and D800E are not in that category if you already own one. If you do not, Mongo may have gone for the E model. Mongo would certainly not sell a near new non-E model to just replace it with an E model - there isn't that much in it.

[arthurking83]

Maybe they have 'C' envy .... No! hangon, they use a K mount(not C) ..... so it must be 'K' envy then.


The amount of sharpening required on a D800 image to bring it up to a D800E level of 'sharpness' is so minimal, it's barely worth the effort in doing the edit step. That is, your natural edit process would be to create a sharpening routine than the values required to equalize the D800 to the D800E images.

Because of this point, once the D800 image has been sharpened up in PP, it's almost impossible to detect the differences between the two camera's capability that they may as well be considered equal in the end.

I dunno about putting a value difference in terms of quality tho .. if I had to, I'd say 0% difference in the end because the D800 files can be sharpened up to an equal point.
What can't be taken out of the equation tho is the possibility of moire, which can and does happen more regularly than it does with the D800 .. even Nikon admit too and warn about this on their site.

But there are some advantages in having the E version .. is that worth paying a 10% premium ..... who knows(I don't reckon it is).

[Sar NOP]

The real difference between the D800E and the D800 is on the print : the moiré effect is much visible on the paper than on the computer screen.
For wildlife photographers (bird shooters in particular) who need to print quality posters (or need severe crop and print), the D800E files could be a real issue : even the moiré is not visible on the monitor, it will be quite noticeable on the print.

[mongo]

The real difference between the D800E and the D800 is on the print : the moiré effect is much visible on the paper than on the computer screen.
For wildlife photographers (bird shooters in particular) who need to print quality posters (or need severe crop and print), the D800E files could be a real issue : even the moiré is not visible on the monitor, it will be quite noticeable on the print.

that is very interesting to note. Mongo had no idea about this difference and it does not seem to be widely known or spoken about. Although Mongo has not has a photo printed for many years (and unlikely to in future but one never knows), nonetheless, now knowing this possibility, Mongo would NOT buy the E - model. It seems that if there was too little difference in these two models before, this new information just tips the scales even further for Mongo about not going for the E model.

Ironically, Mongo has recently been asked to take some corporate portrait shots for a friend's business, which are no doubt intended to be printed. If Mongo had owned the E model instead, he would have taken all the shots with it for this purpose without any awareness of this possibility.

Having said all that, there is no doubt how well the E model performs outside of print. Frankly, Mongo would love to see an example of a print from a E model just to see how pronounced this is.

Sar, if what you have said is correct, one must wonder how the D7100 will perform "in print" if it has no AA filter at all ??! Unlike a lot of us on AP, the normal photographer who buys this camera is likely to be the one who has prints made regularly from their shots ! that may be an issue for them.

[Lance B]

I have printed a few shots with my D800E and with fine feather detail from birds and have not seen any evidence of Moire or false colour whatsoever.

[arthurking83]

.......

Sar, if what you have said is correct, one must wonder how the D7100 will perform "in print" if it has no AA filter at all ??! Unlike a lot of us on AP, the normal photographer who buys this camera is likely to be the one who has prints made regularly from their shots ! that may be an issue for them.


The vast majority of 'normal photographers' will most likely stick with kit lenses, so moire won't be an issue in many instances.
Where moire will be an issue(if it is at all), is for the enthusiast photographer possibly with access to higher resolving lenses. But then again, they'll know what to expect and how to deal with it.

the normal photographer most likely won't care if they get a few traces of moire in their 0.01c prints!

One would have to assume that in Sar's comments, a possible reason for the discrepancy between print and screen quality could be calibration?
Technically speaking a perfectly calibrated screen will display exactly what is seen on the screen to the paper in question.

I remember that Lance has a top'o'the line Dell screen, which is aRGB capable to almost the fullest degree, so a question that could resolve this issue would be ....
to Lance: do you use the aRGB setting on the screen, and process in the aRGB gamut?

to Sar: do the photographers with this issue have properly calibrated screens that are being viewed in the same colour gamut as they are being worked on?
That is, if the screen is only sRGB capable, even at 100%, but the photographer is working in a higher quality colour gamut, of course the result is that you won't accurately see the exact image on the screen as how the print will turn out.

[Sar NOP]

to Sar: do the photographers with this issue have properly calibrated screens that are being viewed in the same colour gamut as they are being worked on?
That is, if the screen is only sRGB capable, even at 100%, but the photographer is working in a higher quality colour gamut, of course the result is that you won't accurately see the exact image on the screen as how the print will turn out.


This report is from a french professional photographer (wildlife photographer) who does a lot of high quality art prints for exhibition. I assume he has proper monitors to work with...

[arthurking83]

..... I assume he has proper monitors to work with...

A reasonable assumption too.

It is a strange situation, but the theory of using a high quality aRGB capable monitor, properly calibrated as well, is that you get close enough to a WYSIWYG workflow that it makes no difference to the human eye.

You would have to assume that this photographer also has calibrated his printer as well to match the rest of the workflow.


But FWIW .. I'm struggling to get moire from my D800E to begin with .. let alone see any differences between my (low end)screen and any prints I may(or usually may not) make.

[Lance B]

I remember that Lance has a top'o'the line Dell screen, which is aRGB capable to almost the fullest degree, so a question that could resolve this issue would be ....
to Lance: do you use the aRGB setting on the screen, and process in the aRGB gamut?

I am working in sRGB on my screen as this is what the web is and I am usually posting to the web. However, I have printed quite a number of my photos and they are basically a perfect copy of what I see on my screen, making it easy to print.

As I say, I have not seen moire or false colour in any prints. I have only encountered moire on screen a couple of times in tiny areas of the iridescent blue of a kookaburras feathers and it was very easily dealt with. As far as moire is concerned with the D800E, there really isn't any concern! In fact, I've had more issues with moire with my D700!! :)

If I had my time over again, I wouldn't have bothered getting the D800 and go straight to the D800E instead. However, the differences are marginal at best and the reason I would get the D800E is simply because post processing is easier, ie less time concerned with trying to get the sharpening spot on with the E.

[ameerat42]

At a point like this, it could be constructive to think about the difference between meerkats and markets.

[Goatch]

At a point like this, it could be constructive to think about the difference between meerkats and markets.

LOL , almost fell off my chair:lol:

[jamesridley]

Same here done alot of photos with landscapes and birds on my canon IPF 6300 inkjet printer very clear indeed no moire:)

[Chookman]

My experience so far with the 800e

Hand held low light and slower shutter speeds the 800e is taking some getting use to.
I'm finding the high level of detail the camera offers is proving to affect my normal settings thought pattern for handheld low light conditions (ie concerts, some sport, events) and find myself sticking with the D700.
Having said that and having just shot some structural engineering work all I can say is... WOW!!! OMG!!!
Moire pattern is there but nothing that significant and can't be worked around.
Having a borrowed a D800 and used flat out for 3 days (World Super Bikes) and now owning/comparing to an 800e, for my purposes I'm glad I bought the E.

Chook

[JonathanChoi]

As they all said above, E has the AA filter removed and it does seems to increase the sharpness. I do own the D800E and I haven't really come across any moire, so I really don't think that is a problem, even if it is, post processing is a very easy fix.