D800 is here..

[mongo]

Hey Mongo, I was adding my other reply as you added yours.

For (predominantly) shooting birds I wouldn't choose the E model.
The lower specced low pass filter will most likely cause moire effects in the high frequency patterns in the birds feathers.

Where there is high frequency repeating patterns, such as many fabrics, or distant building textures, or birds feathers, you risk getting moire patterns.
You can get software that reduces the effect, but this is not the same as not getting the effect in the file in the first place.
It(the software) reduces the resolution of the fine detail anyhow, so why bother trying to get it in the first place.

There are particularly good reasons to have the E model, and because I primarily concentrate on this genre, Landscaping comes to mind as a reason to get the E model.
It's very rare to get repeating high frequency details in nature like that.

I've been reading that a lot of folks (on other fora) are interested in an E model for Macro, where you'd expect the extra detail level to be an advantage, but again, in many macro situations you get very fine repeating patterns that will cause moire ..... think of a fly's eyes or very fine hair like structures in a flower.

I hate moire, and while this was a long time ago that I had to deal with it, and software may have come a long way since then, this was with the D70s.
A camera notorious for producing moire whenever it could!
Strange little fact about this camera, is that it used the sensor from the D100, which was less susceptible to moire, I suspect in an attempt from Nikon to get better details. But on the D70/D70s, it kind of backfired. The D70 models obviously had weaker AA filters than the D100 had.
But it was well known too that the D100 image could be brought back up to the same level of detail as an image from the D70's could be got!
USM! Appropriate use of USM got images back up to similar standards of detail to the D70 cameras.
It seemed that Nikon relented with that sensor's AA filter, because they also used it in the D50 and then D40 cameras, but they never had moire issues like the D70s did.

It is true tho that in some cases you will get detail in the image from an E model that you may never get from the non E model, as you would expect from a lower strength AA filter on the same sensor, but you risk seeing this moire issue as well.

There is a great example of the issue on the Nikon site:

http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Ex...slr-tech-moire

While it's great that you can ultimately get more detail from the E, look at the last image to see the moire patterning.
One thing tho, and that is that even tho the fabric in the kimono did produce moire patterns in the image from the D800E and not the D800, if you look at the sample images from the D800E on the Nikon site, the fabric in the kimono doesn't produce moire colour. So the image can be captured(or processed) to eliminate the issue .. just something to be aware of.

Mongo sends his very big thanks to you Arthur for for the detailed explanation. Mongo was afraid that may be the answer - now he is sure.


There were reasons for the question. The obvious one is that the D800E must have an application and no shortage of buyers and it is a little sharper. Clearly, there are limits to its use- horses for courses it seems


The thing that got Mongo going down the track to that question was also reading that the Fijifilm X-pro 1(for general use) has done away with the low pass filter and gets sharper out of the camera images to start with. The appear to have achieved this by randomizing the red, green and blue pixel arrangement in lots of 6 x 6 pixels. Very clever ! Clearly, Nikon has not done this or has not thought the idea worth while or fiji’s patent is preventing that from happening.


Whilst it is generally true that each successive generation of camera brings real improvements on the last and that the D800 is one of the best things announced by Nikon since Nikon invented sliced bread , Mongo now thinks that the D800 is probably one or two generations short of being ideal. It is possible that its successor may incorporate something like the fujifilm technology (giving sharper out of the camera images so we do not have to work so hard in PP trying to get that lost sharpness back) and also Sony’s mirrorless technology giving less vibration and very quick frame counts.


Just a thought - and again, thanks Arthur.

[arthurking83]

I suppose if you have the patience Mongo, you're probably best off waiting until a proper test of the D800E is made, and made with the proviso that moire reduction in software can eliminate it.

If software has progressed enough in that it can clean up the moire in an image and replace it with the proper detail, then the D800E is definitely the way to go.

You've brought up quite a valid point, and if you wait and think things through, sometimes the lightbulb really does turn itself on for you.
(this just happened to be via your question) .. So now I think I'll wait to see how the IQ of the D800E pans out(in terms of software) and then decide too, if I get an E or normal version.

Sometimes, I'm dubious about the use of clever technology to overcome a basic problem(eg like moire).
From what I know of the issue, and the small bits of tech info I've accumulated over time, the only(as I understand it) sensor technology that does eliminate moire is the Foveon(or similar type) sensor, when the AA filter is weakened or removed.
Foveon sensors have all three primary colours over each photosite. The Fuji idea probably sounds as though it ought to work to a degree at least, but I doubt it will completely eliminate it .. and Fuji also have other issues they can't deal with WRT their new sensor technology(white orb issue).

tip: have a quick read of the Sigma DP-1 Merrill over on DPR. The low ISO IQ is very impressive when compared to it's peers. It also doesn't use a low pass filter.

[K10D]

Had a quick look at a D800 and D4 on Tuesday night at my local camera club. One thing that concerns me is that the metering selector switch has now gone to software. A big negative for me. Why are Nikon chasing Canon in video terms? We are losing photographic switches for video functions. I will be seriously looking at either another D700 or a D3 as a second FF body.

Best regards

[I @ M]

Had a quick look at a D800 and D4 on Tuesday night at my local camera club. One thing that concerns me is that the metering selector switch has now gone to software. A big negative for me. Why are Nikon chasing Canon in video terms? We are losing photographic switches for video functions. I will be seriously looking at either another D700 or a D3 as a second FF body.

Best regards

I am sure that you meant to type that it is the focus area selection switch that has changed positions and not the metering "dial" which remains pretty much where it always has been.
I don't see that the change to the way focus area mode selection is made is such a bad thing really, it is still achieved by pushing a button but now it also involves the use of a dial as well. Admittedly I have only briefly used a D7000 which operates in the same way but being able to press a button and rotate a dial while not taking your eye from the view finder (which is where the AF area in use is displayed) seems quite a good idea. Even better is that by doing what they have done, they now have a much more usable video switch than before.
As for video, I have always held the view that if I wanted a video camera I would buy a dedicated one. I guess times have changed as it looks like it will be an inclusion on just about every dslr sold from now on, doesn't seem to add much if anything to the price and it doesn't have to be used if you don't want it and I am definitely looking forward to using a D800 when they hit the shelves of the local camera shop early next decade century.

Since the release of the D800 I have repeatedly voiced my opinion that all the people that are complaining about the apparent or perceived lack of speed and uber fast access to controls with this new body need to examine whether the D800 is really the camera that suits their photography. On the point of controls, we now have a bracket button back in a sensible place which further gives a few clues as to where the camera is aimed at in the marketplace.
I don't know many people that want to shoot fast moving birds or football players at 12 fps and do bracketed exposure bursts. I do on the other hand know quite a few people that will enjoy being able to exposure bracket a landscape or portrait shot at a leisurely pace with the camera on a tripod.

For fast work, the D4 or the ( D3s, positive bargain at the moment ) is at the top of the pile and the D700 is more of an all round body that hasn't suddenly stopped taking great images and is also selling at very tempting prices.

[arthurking83]

.....
As for video, I have always held the view that if I wanted a video camera I would buy a dedicated one. ......

Yep! and in most circumstances you'll get a better quality video from it(ie. more features and performance specs) ... but!....

But, there's a price to pay, and that's either through the nose, or at the cheaper end, the inability to use all your favourite lenses, and then some.

You either get a nice performing all-in-one kit with fast frame rates, and stable and clean IQ, but you'll be stuck with the dinky slow lens that it welded to it, or you pay massively through the nose and then again(pay through the nose!!) for the adapter to mount the lenses you already have.

Both of those features are two aspects I'd prefer not to deal with, and if I had the $5 to spend on a video body to get some good video features .. well that quite a few more lenses to add to the kit instead!

Video in DSLR's is a feature I've been waiting for for a long time.

I don't view video in DSLR as a negative in any way, but I do agree that adding a switch for it, that is readily at hand is a bit of a waste.
Live view on the other hand should have a dedicated switch .. for example right where they placed it on the D800! ...

As for the focus mode selector... this is one button I rarely use! .. to remove it and use some other less intrusive method is not only NOT a tragedy, but also to be heralded as a step forward.
Why would you want to switch from single point focus anyhow?
And as I believe it to work, as Andrew said .. it seems to make more sense to use the focus button/switch to do ALL the focus selection features and functions, rather than a hotpotch of one switch here and another there. That doesn't make sense!!

The other day, I tried to show my brother what this focusing feature did, and tried to use 3D tracking as the example .. completely forgot where the switch was for a moment, as my focus mode switch hasn't been touched in about 3 or 4 years! .. I briefly thought that the CSM switch was going to change to 3D tracking .. doh!

The only feature that I've wanted for a long time too is that they finally have added AutoISO to the list of possible ISO values on the ISO switch and in a round robin selection method(where you can keep rotating from Lo1 to Hi2 to Auto to Lo1 again. Having to scroll from Hi2 down to base or Lo1 can be a pain.

[I @ M]

Yep! and in most circumstances you'll get a better quality video from it(ie. more features and performance specs) ------------ and if I had the $5 to spend on a video body to get some good video features .

Yep, that sums it up to me. Total expenditure needed.

Besides, I read the other day that they limit the recording time to just under 30 mins for some reason or another and then someone noted that it was a good thing because it allowed them to edit out 28 minutes of crap easily.

[rodw]

Yep, that sums it up to me. Total expenditure needed.

Besides, I read the other day that they limit the recording time to just under 30 mins for some reason or another and then someone noted that it was a good thing because it allowed them to edit out 28 minutes of crap easily.

I must say that the video features are an added bonus for me and is one reason why I waited for the D800 instead of grabbing a D700. Not that I expect to use it a lot but to get a broadcast quality video camera for free is very appealing.

I've played around with video in the past but always gravitated back to still photos. Now the editing is much easier in Premiere and Final Cut Pro so maybe I might use it a bit more. I can't see the 30 min limit is an issue for anything I do. The only thing I can think of would be if you were filming a live event and you wanted to devote one camera to record a master track so you got all of the audio and a wide shot. A cheap dedicated camera would be fine for this as you probably would not use much footage from this source.

I think if you are planning in using video, you should budget on a video microphone (eg. Rode) and maybe a zoom hn4 audio recorder and possibly a wired lapel mic. Might cost a bit more than $5 but it would come in well under $500!

[rodw]

On the topic of video, this one is an interesting D800 example.

[arthurking83]

Had a quick play with a D800 today.
(my cousin got one!! .. barstard!!).
Didn't get much of a chance to play with it, a few snaps here and there, and only with his card.
He was coming as I was going, and we had a long catchup chat and all that.
Would have loved to get some timings info using my CF card.
LOL! a 4G card only gives you an estimated 97 images(NEF)!!

Camera feels good, all the switches fall to hand nicely and the new CSM focus switch makes perfectly good sense too!(I use that quite a lot on my old screw driven lenses).

All other buttons and switches are well placed, and feel quite natural with me coming from a D300, and D700 users will feel right at home, unless they regularly use the focus mode switch a lot.

My brother also got himself a D5100 as well, for his impending holidays. Of course it's a great lil camera, but that the problem with it .. it's so damned LITTLE!
Controls are hard to use, it can only be held with the use of your fingers, not the whole hand.
Even tho it's a Nikon, I can't easily(or quickly) get my head around the Info menu.
It's hard to setup the camera for him, but he's slowly working through it all.
I think I'm getting my brother hooked on photography, now that he's beginning to understand it a bit.

Anyhow, the D800 looks to be quite good .. but unfortunately not the uber intelligent image capture device as I wanted it to be
.... Took a few snaps around the dinner table tonight, under very bad(mixed lighting) and the images turned out as badly whitebalanced as I get with my 4 year older D300!
The lights are quite bad though, and I still haven't had a chance to replace them!
(@ my folks place, but it's a moot point now, as the house is going to be demolished in a few months time anyhow).

Strangely, my cousin Tony got his D800 three weeks ago now!
Didn't think to ask him from where! .. doh! .. but he paid the proper $3400 for it.


What I'm pissed with now is that, that bird eating lil monster Mongo!!! .. he's now got me thinking a D800E is what I may really want .. damn that Mongo!

Oh! .... and I can't see myself shooting video for more than 30min either .. at least not with a DSLR form factor.
I actually came into still imaging from an interest in video.
I took up media studies in high school, and ended up liking the photography side of things just as much ... except the stinky nausea inducing darkroom processing side of things tho!

[rirakuma]

Thats weird, my 32GB card only holds 399 NEF images. I agree with the mixed lighting auto WB, its not spot on but fixable in PP.

[Tommo1965]

Ive been reading quite a few negative posts at DPR about the D800 these include lock ups, faulty AF sensors, yellow colour casts on the rear LCD, given these issues as reliable, how many are rethinking a D800 purchase, and would rather wait until the D800 dust settles... particularly if you was contemplating a overseas purchase

its got me thinking...Id given up my plans on buying a used D700 and instead go all out and get a D800 and be a happy camper for a few years but now Im gonna wait until they are freely available and problems fixed..might take a while I know...I also think the current price is too much...perhaps that might settle too...a gamble I know

[arthurking83]

Ive been reading quite a few negative posts at DPR ......

You need a really good sense of humour to read the garbage .. idiocy ... Err... I mean writings on DPR's forums!

99.999% tripe, posted by 12 year olds with too much time to surf the net.

So far on the more serious Nikon boards and forums, there seems to be no indication of any issues that I've read about.

Do yourself a favour and stop reading DPR's forum boards .. especially the fanboi .. I mean, gear related forums.

[I @ M]

I also think the current price is too much

I thought the same thing about the last Rolls Royce I purchased.
But, in the end I swallowed my pride, extended the credit card and have had several years of trouble free use of it now instead of waiting for the price to drop and not using it.
You have to hand it to matchbox, they make the best die cast products going.

99.999% tripe, posted by 12 year olds with too much time to surf the net.

plos plus wun won !!!!!!

Do yourself a favour and stop reading DPR's forum boards .. especially the fanboi .. I mean, gear related forums.

Wat wood u no, you are torking garbidge agin and i am sic of ur nikon fanboy atitood and i am switching to canon tomorrow coz i can go and by a 1dx at wallmart tomorow!!!

[Tommo1965]

yes Arthur Im well aware of the crap that touted at DPR...but there is some wheat amongst the chaff......Ming Thien was the first Tog that I read that had the AF sensor alignment issue he got confirmation from Nikon in Malaysia that its real...so I dont doubt that it is ...seems a few early adopter pains to me ...



http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/03/30...cusing-issues/

[arthurking83]

[QUOTE=I @ M;1008324]......



AHA!! I knew I'd flush you out evechally! .... Ewes were spamming the boreds with all that tech talk!

I alredy got my 1D-X the other week, and it's OK .. just waiting for the 1D-C-4K to arrive in the next day or tow so I can get propar video done for my school project .. film production that I'm working on for Spielberg and Lucas.
There've been happy with my pics from the D4 and D800 so far, but thay complained about graininess, so I had to get a 1D-X and then 1D C 4K to appease them, I think their Canon fanbois at heart byt just wont admit it.




If that looks or sounds familiar it's probably because you've already read something similar on DPR's boreds!!

[Redgum]

Why do early adopters pay such a high premium for beta testing the D800 technology (or any technology)? When Australia was well down the distribution list it didn't matter that much but now we are on the priority list it seems many togs are suckers for punishment. Fair enough, I got my D800 for nothing but it goes back when I return from Peru and will probably be replaced with a discounted unit if it does what I need. But consumer uses can pay a high price (purchase & servicing) if there happens to be a problem.
Cameras, like any other technology, are subject to faults and this is pretty common. Some faults are simple software updates but others can be serious and require the return of a unit which is never convenient particularly when you have already paid a premium price.
As a journo I review technology daily and you can count on 70% of complaints originate in the first three months of life. After that things seem to settle down.
The moral I guess is to wait longer and pay less for better results.

[Xebadir]

I honestly don't think it makes one Iota of difference Redgum. We all know consumer electronics these days are not designed to be long lasting, and there is always a chance you will just get a lemon when you buy anyway (no matter how long it is into a products lifecycle) - its just the way things go with quality control mechanisms far from flawless and checking every unit (a sypmtom of mass production). Paying a premium? I honestly doubt that we will see a fall in the price of the D800 in the next year (note this may not reflect the unit price at Australian Overpriced Retailers which may give a false falling appearance). At the very least. As for the service well that remains to be seen, havent seen anything too worrying on a mass scale yet.

Was happy to learn that my D800 will be arriving later this week, so looking forward to getting a real hands on assessment and start learning the features before the annual US stormchasing trip.

[Lance B]

I honestly don't think it makes one Iota of difference Redgum. We all know consumer electronics these days are not designed to be long lasting, and there is always a chance you will just get a lemon when you buy anyway (no matter how long it is into a products lifecycle) - its just the way things go with quality control mechanisms far from flawless and checking every unit (a sypmtom of mass production). Paying a premium? I honestly doubt that we will see a fall in the price of the D800 in the next year (note this may not reflect the unit price at Australian Overpriced Retailers which may give a false falling appearance). At the very least. As for the service well that remains to be seen, havent seen anything too worrying on a mass scale yet.

Agreed. This is the price we pay for technology nowadays and I also don't see the price of the D800 falling anytime in the foreseeable future. The price has been set and that is where it will remain until nearer the model cycle, just like the D700. As you say, the Aussie Retailers will dig their heels in with regards to pricing.

As for QC, it is generally better on the pro spec models than the consumer/prosumer models as this is part of the reason for higher pricing of these models. This has more to do with the fact that there are more in system and more elaborate checking procedures of these pro sepc models compared to the lower end consumer/prosumer models.

[Chris G]

Yeh but isn't the only real reason that we are such a over marked price is due the GST?

As most should know and which is oblivious to what retailers are doing is actually charging us the end consumer whatever the gst cost them which ends being about 30% more + whatever they desire to put ontop after that 30% due the fact that they have already paid out for their 10% so whatever is charged after is straight into the pockets without the need to claim anything aslong as the 10% has been charged somewhere along the line..

Import 10%, wholesaler 20%, Retailer 30% = end consumer ????%

I do apologise as this is waaaaaaaay off topic nor am I starting a flame and if such just remove..

[rodw]

Agreed we will pay more for GST by 10%. Personally, I thought the Aussie pricing is not too bad compared with US pricing even when exchange rates are taken into account. Our street price is still below that in Japan and well under British and European prices.

All in all the $3400 I will pay is close to the US price after deductiong GST. It is unusual for the US and Aussie prices on any technology to be so close together which to me indicates that Nikon has decided it has to brice more fairly accross the globe. I guess that is one advantage from them taking over distribution directly in this country rather than going through a Distributor (which was Maxwells).