Professionalism.

[kiwi]

100 you mean

[SRR33]

Whos tony?

[Kym]

On the subject of education...

Many (most?) TAFE IT grads end up in helpdesk roles at first where as a Degree grad is likely to have a real IT job (ouch! I know that bites).
(Real as in code cutting or something similar)
This is anecdotal, but with 30+ years in the game and having interviewed applicants for many roles
in the last 20+ years, and also talking with head-hunters I'm very confident of this statement.

Bluntly: when we have employed grads, we treat them as bright people who know how to learn
and first start by undoing the crud Uni puts in their brain and teach them how it is in the real world.
Not all Uni stuff is crud, but there is a lot of dated and unrealistic theory which needs to be removed.

IBM (my former employer) have a very intense grad program which does what I said above,
although they would not say so in those words.
Other large company grad programs are similar.

I don't know why we would expect anything more from photography courses.

In the end you are your own best teacher, its your research and practical efforts that enable you to learn.
Which is why AP with its emphasis on good CC (and it can always be better) is one of the best
learning tools on the planet for photography. I think we undervalue AP's teaching ability.
Consider NTP, tutes, general discussion, comps, and the gem that is CC - AP is a real treasure!

[Kym]

Whos tony?

Tony B started the thread!

[Nina]

100% agree to the above.

Now on another note, do clients even ask if you have a certificate or if you are part of some photography member (AIPP etc)??? I doubt they even care. I think the first thing they look at is your portfolio and then they ask themselves, can this photographer capture something for me that i will like. Once they select a photographer or two, they contact them, speak to them in person and get a feel of them. Then price comes into a big factor, and then availablity. I think thats pretty much it to be honest.

Perhaps noting you are credited on your website can win over the client, but i doubt you can be more professional than someone who hasnt been credited.

Offcourse there will always be a photographer or two who is not professional at all, but thats everywhere.

I do fairly regularly get asked if I have done a photography course, how I got started, how long I have been in the business.

[bigdazzler]

I think that by default a lot of people tend to think that if someone is reasonably good at something, they have done a "course" or have "training"

I too, get asked if Ive done such things, to which I always answer "nup .. everything I know I learnt from reading, the internet, and practice."

Photography is one of those vocations where you dont need to study to become good at it. It is simply your ability to learn and put into practice.

[Kym]

I do fairly regularly get asked if I have done a photography course, how I got started, how long I have been in the business.

I think that by default a lot of people tend to think that if someone is reasonably good at something, they have done a "course" or have "training"<snip>.

Tertiary education is a product just like anything else.
It's very much so by Govt policy (both sides) - so it tries to sell itself and make $$$$$.

Govt policy pushes training as a solution to un-employment, when in fact learning is required.
Some training can be useful if I want to learn something, but so can my own learning efforts.

Scotty and other HS teachers have to deal with some students who don't want to learn (for any number of reasons) and that is really hard work.
But, when we get to tertiary and elective courses people generally want to learn.
A lot of the courses offered and really quite average in terms of value for money.

We are however brainwashed marketed that training (as different from learning) is good for us and that we must do it via a formal course.

[ving]

99 replies and no response from Tony B O.P. ??

[zollo]

100% agree to the above.

Now on another note, do clients even ask if you have a certificate or if you are part of some photography member (AIPP etc)??? I doubt they even care. I think the first thing they look at is your portfolio and then they ask themselves, can this photographer capture something for me that i will like. Once they select a photographer or two, they contact them, speak to them in person and get a feel of them. Then price comes into a big factor, and then availablity. I think thats pretty much it to be honest.

Perhaps noting you are credited on your website can win over the client, but i doubt you can be more professional than someone who hasnt been credited.

Offcourse there will always be a photographer or two who is not professional at all, but thats everywhere.

just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards

[ving]

go out and take some photos you lot!

[zollo]

go out and take some photos you lot!

ha thanks. just go back from a shoot with 304 photos to edit and sort through.

[kiwi]

just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards

I would have thought that formal qualififications are not what is required necessarily, I would say that AIPP Membership (for example) would be more than adequate in this regard. Including other collateral such as public liability insurance certificates etc.

[crystalflair]

I guess we all like to have a rant at times hey.

I am wondering if being a professional photographer is more about peered reviewed as opposed to a commercial (in a general working context) photographer, maybe not but I often think of professional photographers as the people who are winning awards and hopefuly teaching us.

Professionalism applies to many avenues corporate, medical, educational, hospitality .......You can have trained people that are unproffesional ie unprofessional builder (house falls down as he skimped on materials) doctor (performs a second procedure during surgery without consent!).
In them old days they used to put up a shingle now we get a domain
Some people are always going to tout themselves as being better than they are and others the opposite, we are just more aware of it these days with technology virtualy shrinking our world. The genral public have more means to research the shingle .

If you are serious about calling yourself a photographer register as a business, take some courses & pay some taxes (or not as the case may be) the same as the rest of the profession. It does have benefits.

I think of myself as a photographer, not as a profession but I still think of myself as a photographer, I take photos, along with everyone else here I am helping to preserve our history. Perhaps I will help with conservation be it of nature or manmade structures, perhaps we will help preserve a families history you get the drift.

[Scotty72]

That's because the general public typically is ignorant of AIPP or any other professional body.

It's not as though AIPP or any other body has the marketing budget to do push advertising (TV, Radio etc)

I think it's the obligation of members to educate the public on engagement about the "profession" and why and to choose a photographer (along the same lines as what Mark posted ages ago) that suits their budget and expectation

With all due respect... what a load of rubbish!

A client has no need to care about the status of the AIPP etc... who cares about the AIPP except (perhaps) its members?

If I want to engage a photographer, I want good photos - end of story.

What I do not want is some pompous person trying to convince me that he is in fact a 'professional' because of the existance of some organisation of which I have never hear and could care less if it folded tomorrow.

Scotty

[Scotty72]

Scotty and other HS teachers have to deal with some students who don't want to learn (for any number of reasons) and that is really hard work.
But, when we get to tertiary and elective courses people generally want to learn.
A lot of the courses offered and really quite average in terms of value for money.

We are however brainwashed marketed that training (as different from learning) is good for us and that we must do it via a formal course.

Exactly correct.

I have spent some (not a lot) teaching (Eng and History) at a university.

Even in these humanities subjects (it is far worse in the technical areas), so many students have the attitude that they are not here to learn but, they are there to get their piece of paper and will merely jump through the hoops.

Don't get me wrong; sometimes, this is acceptable : sometimes not.

Eg. The computer whiz who hacks into NASA computers at aged 8 who is forced to TAFE / UNI go get a formal IT qualification. Clearly, he is wasting his time and simple jumping through the hoops. I understand his frustration.

But, the student who thinks they are better than they are; they annoy me. Clearly, they need a reality check.

Happens in HS as well.

Scotty

[farmer_rob]

With all due respect... what a load of rubbish!

A client has no need to care about the status of the AIPP etc... who cares about the AIPP except (perhaps) its members?

If I want to engage a photographer, I want good photos - end of story.

What I do not want is some pompous person trying to convince me that he is in fact a 'professional' because of the existance of some organisation of which I have never hear and could care less if it folded tomorrow.

Scotty

I largely agree with you, but if the AIPP wants clients to care about the AIPP, it needs to overcome opinions such as yours (and mine) - both in approach (e.g. not pompous) and profile (e.g. advertising to the public about the "benefits" of choosing an AIPP-accredited photographer.)

[ricktas]

I think that by default a lot of people tend to think that if someone is reasonably good at something, they have done a "course" or have "training"
.

OR...Gee you take really good photos, you must have a great camera

[ving]

OR...Gee you take really good photos, you must have a great camera

true that.

cheryl and i got aproached at some horse races, we just had out d40s with kit lenses on

[kiwi]

With all due respect... what a load of rubbish!

A client has no need to care about the status of the AIPP etc... who cares about the AIPP except (perhaps) its members?

If I want to engage a photographer, I want good photos - end of story.

What I do not want is some pompous person trying to convince me that he is in fact a 'professional' because of the existance of some organisation of which I have never hear and could care less if it folded tomorrow.

Scotty

rubbish ? did you understand the point ?

why automatically assign pompous to aipp member ? talk about stereotyping

its the same as an architect justifying why he charges so much more than a draughtsman to a prospective client when they dont know better.

[jasevk]

Scotty, the AIPP has very good reason to help the public understand what professional photographers ate about, how they operate and what to expect when they engage the services of a photographer... The AIPP is committed to ensuring that pros are provided with all the resources and business tools to be able to minimize risk to the client. They are also launching a program to ensure that pros are keeping their skills up to date by attending seminars and workshops etc, which at the end of the day is nothing but beneficial to members AND peace of mind to their clients.

Therefore... I don't see what's so silly about the comments made earlier???