DSLRs are dead ... long live "3rd gen cameras" ?

[Kym]

Mainstream film is dead, now DSLRs are going to be dead, and we now have "3rd generation" (EVIL, Mirror-less etc) cameras.
Well according to Trey Ratcliff that is what will happen next.

http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2012...-of-dslrs.html
http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2012/0...are-the-future

My take is that until
a) "3rd generation" sensors goto 35mm or bigger
b) The range of quality glass to suit "3rd generation" cameras is available
DSLRs wont have much to worry about.

The cost of changing system is high, so the change over will take some years, but I think in 10 years time DSLRs won't be the ant's pants.

Let the rumours and speculations be posted in this thread

[ameerat42]

As usual, such announcements are painfully hyperbolic; full of "eureka!" and "I-see-the-light-ery", not to mention generalisations, and "I-said-it-firsts".
I agree with your points, Kym, though I HAPE mirror boxes in digital cameras. (Sure, they were once the go, but I have never been happy with the slappery of a mirror.)

So far I have not bought (and even worse, not even been given) a DSLR, predominantly because of their bare-faced bulkiness. (Boy, if I want bulk I have the RB67 to lug about!)

Well, here's to the advent of EVIL (as an acronym, of course).
m.

[Wayne]

I think that EVIL camera systems will evolve quickly, because to the mainstream user, and courtesy of marketers, the average joe will think they can get DSLR quality and features in smaller, cheaper, lighter systems.
The problem here is that we know it isn't true..yet.
All of the things Kym mentioned I agree with, but I will add that EVILS tend to be menu or GUI based for changing settings etc and that is part of their reason for being compact, but when a DSLR can change shutter speed, aperture, ISO, focus and metering modes with the single press of a button in many cases, they are far more suited to serious shooters, particularly those shooting sports or fast paced things like weddings, fashion, in addition the DSLR can shoot many frames/sec and some with large buffers, EVILS don't.

I think DSLR's are safe for a few years yet..

[etherial]

Yes DSLRs are safe for a few years, but I think the EVIL market will develop rapidly. I know I'm keeping an eye on them. The prospect of very high fps and a long lens in a smaller package is attractive, but until they can reach comparative performance in terms of focus speed and sensor performance to my 7D I won't be buying one. I reckon maybe 5 years.

[peterb666]

I think EVIL cameras will make huge inroads along with fixed mirror cameras and other technologies like electronic shutters.

I think the tradition dSLR will be with us for a long time but entry level dSLRs will largely be replaced by EVIL cameras. EVIL cameras will also bridge the premium market between dSLRs and premium rangefinders like the Leica M series.

I think all of this is good as it offers more choice.

[KLi]

I could never stand electronic viewfinders.

[mikec]

I completely agree Kym. I know Sony are getting up there with their latest NEX offerings, Fuji is also developing something that looks quite promising.

Until glass and sensors can match DSLR offerings I won't bother switching but it'd be nice to have a more compact yet just as capable system.

[arthurking83]

I agree that the DSLR's days are basically numbered.
Complicated mechanics and fragile tolerances .. all add up to increase production costs, so the first real tech breakthrough that manufacturers find to replace the venerable mirror system, would be ideal for improving bottom line profitability.

The question is how long before this high quality electronic viewfinder technology overtakes optical superiority... not so much if
If you believe reports about the Sony A77, most reviewers praise the quality of the viewfinder system .. and this is in effect only a second generation, low order EVF.
One would expect higher quality for an EVF within the likes of a fully professional body.

I'd find that a slimmer body type would actually be counter intuitive(for me at least) .. in that removing the space where the mirror used to lie, and creating a slimmer body would make it more uncomfortable for me to hold the camera/lens combo.
The size of most pro camera's seem to fit the size of my hand perfectly, whereas I find smaller cameras(D90 sized) to be uncomfortable, as I have to hold the body more so with my fingertips, instead of naturally allowing it to rest in the palm of the hand.

[mikec]

I'd find that a slimmer body type would actually be counter intuitive(for me at least) .. in that removing the space where the mirror used to lie, and creating a slimmer body would make it more uncomfortable for me to hold the camera/lens combo.
The size of most pro camera's seem to fit the size of my hand perfectly, whereas I find smaller cameras(D90 sized) to be uncomfortable, as I have to hold the body more so with my fingertips, instead of naturally allowing it to rest in the palm of the hand.

I agree but surely if they were making a dedicated pro body they would ensure the ergonomics are still there otherwise it would be a flop since it is one of the many things that make a pro body pro.

[etherial]

Leaves plenty of room for the extra battery power that will be needed and the other things we yearn for like wifi and GPS and SSD and.....

[beau]

I've heard rumours that Sony is quite advanced at putting together a pro body with the Alpha77 viewfinder technology. Complete with 25-odd MP full frame sensor that will use it's current range of full frame Zeiss lenses. Might explain why they haven't been forthcoming with an update of the 900 body which is now a few years old.

No idea how true it is, but it makes sense, as they see this new viewfinder as their next big thing.

[Steve Axford]

Who cares what technology is dominant. A photographer will always go for the system that takes the best photos, most easily, at a reasonable price.

[peterb666]

Who cares what technology is dominant. A photographer will always go for the system that takes the best photos, most easily, at a reasonable price.

That doesn't explain why Canon and Nikon dominate the dSLR market.

[Xenedis]

As I see it, there are numerous camera markets out there, some of which are still evolving.

Perhaps the compact, EVIL camera will appeal more to the mainstream point-and-shooter, who simply wants decent images from a device which isn't too cumbersome to carry everywhere. Of course, the iPhone provides that for a lot of people, in a device which people are carrying anyway. That makes it perfect for snapshots.

I think advanced amateurs and professionals will always want something with a bigger sensor and a wide choice in lenses and peripherals, not to mention manual controls.

Bigger sensors generally mean better image quality, and until EVIL cameras can achieve sensor sizes and the low noise levels of cameras like the EOS 5D Mark II, full-frame and APS-H DSLRs will dominate those markets.

Digital medium-format systems are still horrendously expensive, which puts them out of mainstream reach for advanced amateurs and indeed many professionals.

For my own photography, I cannot say I'm particularly concerned by, or even interested in, developments in photographic equipment.

I have more than enough to do what I need and want to do, and I'd rather be out there using the gear than reading and talking about it.

[sunny6teen]

I'm still waiting for video to kill the radio star

[arthurking83]

Who cares what technology is dominant. A photographer will always go for the system that takes the best photos, most easily, at a reasonable price.

I'm not sure that (at the moment) anyone really cares which technology is dominant.
(anyone with an objective view on the subject won't)
But there is going to be a day when people may have to concern themselves about it.

it's obvious that there are many that simply refuse to allow the advancement in technology to take it course, and see digital vf technology as an unnecessary EVIL(pun intended )
What is almost inevitable is that digital vf's will replace optical vf's as this hardware will become cheaper for manufacturers to produce.

The A77 has shown that with digital vf technology, the vf experience can be enhanced in ways that the optical tech could never achieve(effectively) .. that is size and magnification of the vf .. apart from some of the neat tricks it also allows for.
As the tech evolves, more advantages in the technology will become evident as improvements are made and refinements are tuned in.

So to extrapolate this idea further and to predict a likely future scenario, I'm sure that it's only a matter of time when all DSLR's will become EVIL.
But if it gets to the point where all new DSLR's are made with digital viewfinders and there is no option to go with an optical viewfinder, OVF diehards will become displaced, and will not have any option for a camera upgrade path at this point in the future.

Note that I agree with your comments and this is not a rebuttal.

Just a reminder that not all photographers will always go for the system that takes better photos irrespective of the technology used.

Many still refuse to believe that digital imagery is superior to film, and will cling to this belief no matter what.
My belief is that there are always photographers out there that will endure all the negative aspects of of their favoured system, irrespective of the advantages that the new system will provide.


Xenedis: It's only a matter of time before you will find an option for an EVIL full frame camera of some sort.


I still believe that while the advantages of the digital viewfinder don't outweigh the disadvantages the technology introduces(dynamic range and contrast), once this hurdle is fully overcome I personally can't wait to use one for the advantages it will bring.

My current curiosity only extends to how well the A77's EVF works compared to my current camera. And only then, as a guide as to how long into the future I may have to wait for one from Nikon.

Something of note that has not really been discussed much in any of the D4 threads across all the forums I've read on the device, is that of the new review screen's capability.
Nikon are not only claiming a bigger 3.2"(vs 3.0") but an upgraded colour gamut capability, which is close to sRGB!
Firstly, this implies that all other screens aren't close to sRGB capable, and that this specific feature is unique to the D4.
As I've never seen any mention of a review screen's colour gamut capability from any manufacturer, is this the beginning of higher specced rear review screens?
And if so, how does this technology translate to electronic viewfinder technology as well.

[Xenedis]

Xenedis: It's only a matter of time before you will find an option for an EVIL full frame camera of some sort.

It's possible that EVIL cameras with 35mm or larger sensors will eventually exist.

Personally, though, I like looking through my lenses rather than using an electronic viewfinder.

My camera actually has an electronic viewfinder, but I seldom use it.

[lucky phil]

Grab/loan a fuji X100 and take walk. Fuji changed the game without realising it, things are changing fast. It's a great time for photography.

[arthurking83]

Never used one, but from what I understand of it, the evf of the current mirrorless cameras are nothing special, and this is where most folks extrapolate current tech as the future for the technology!

This is the kind of technology that will not stagnate, and my theory is that Canon and Nikon at least, not to mention Pentax(that I can think of off the top of my head) won't implement them in their upper end cameras, unless there are no disadvantages in the system!

Someone commented that Sony is or has been developing a higher quality system for their higher end full frame DSLR's, which would make perfectly good sense to do so.

That is, once the tech exists to at least equal an OVF, they'll implement EVFs into their cameras.

This is why I'm curious to look for myself through an A77. The level of detail in this camera is twice that in the other EVIL cameras.

The lil Fuji sounds great, but the design of the optical system has some serious limitations.

What's going to be hard is to convince the DSLR crew that there is a need to replace the mirror, matte screens and pentaprisms in the current designs, with a purely electronic system, which removes a lot of complexity in current designs and margins for error in performance.

For critical focus, I use Lv mode almost exclusively, which is a necessity at 3-10x magnification and simply more accurate all of the time at standard macro magnifications.
Manually focusing via the viewfinder can be a hit an miss affair. Not a problem when you're doing static work, just annoying.

Having a nice little Rollei 35, which has the same 'rangefinder' viewfinder setup as the Fuji X100 .. well I'm not a big fan of the parallax errors inherent in the system.

The difference between the old generation of EVFs compared to Sony's (new gen) EVF in the A77, is that the old tech is LCD based and only 1.4Mp resolution, the A77 uses OLED technology and 2.4Mp.
Common sense would dictate that the A77's EVF is going to produce a much higher quality image.

I have to admit that I'm a bit of a nut for great viewfinder experience and functionality.
Not that I'm a pro or anything, but I wasted more than $100 on a katzeye focusing screen, because I needed it 'now'. That was pre AU to US dollar parity, and it cost me nearly $100 more than had I waited a few more months for the dollar to reach parity and even surpass it.
Doesn't bother me one bit, as I'd do it again for my next camera if it doesn't have a more configurable viewfinder.

The difference is both remarkable and vivid, especially for when using manual lenses.
I'd recommend one for anyone that wants a nice viewfinder to use, rather than the dull lifeless experience the manufacturers produce as standard.
What you see through your standard manufacturer's viewfinder is nothing more than using the equivalent of a kit lens set to a focal length where it reaches it's f/5.6 aperture setting!

Hopefully the manufacturers can re produce this type of experience(the katzeeye, not the standard version) with some sort of electronic blurring trickery as well, if they set on a course of using them in the future.

[Bennymiata]

I played with a Sony A77, and I have to say that it feels very unbalanced with a biggish lens on it.
As a magazine said, it feels like holding a big lens with the body being nothing more than a big shutter button.

If you have a large sensor, you need larger lenses, and mounting these on small bodies not only looks out of place, but feels weird and unblanced too.
I'm not against new technology, but I think that SLRs will still be around for many, many years to come and that EVILS are just another (and expensive) stepping stone towards an SLR.

For the cost of most of the better EVILS, you can buy a reasonable DSLR anyway, and have a much wider choice of lenses and accessories and a more ergonomic platform to work from anyway.