Keep teaching myself and practising OR do a Degree/Diploma in Photography?

[Crystaljayne]

Hi Guys

I am chasing some advice. Who of you have done a photography course or studied at university, and if you did what course did you do?

I 'm not sure if I should keep learning off you guys or if I should go out and get the piece of paper to hang on my wall, mostly so if and when I decide to do paid work people have the confidence that they can put trust in the fact I am qualified in what I am doing..

I would love to make a career out of it so any advice would be appreciated!

[MarkChap]

Sounds mean, I guess, but a "piece of paper to hang on the wall" a good photographer does not make.

And you won't learn much from us either f you don't post up your work so we can give you some feedback, you have been a member for nearly 12 months now and we haven't seen any of your work yet.

None of the photographers that I look up to have any formal qualification, except that one from the school of hard knocks

[ricktas]

You talk about learning off us, but since you joined, 11 months ago, we have not seen a single photo of yours up for critique. If you want to learn, put your work out there and let people guide you.

[Wayne]

You will learn as much if not more here for free, nothing more than your time. Mark is right, the piece of paper may as well be toilet paper, it means you completed a course, not that you are a good photographer.

[Crystaljayne]

Thank you for your input. That is exactly the what I needed to hear. I'll be sure to become more involved from today.

[FinancialWar]

You will learn as much if not more here for free, nothing more than your time. Mark is right, the piece of paper may as well be toilet paper, it means you completed a course, not that you are a good photographer.

it's not what you know, it's what you can prove what you know. This is how the world works.

Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

[Kaktus]

....Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

Wow ... Really ???

[I @ M]

Wow ... Really ???

I'm with you Kaktus, but seeing as warakawa posted it in the early hours of the morning I reckon they were a little tired and managed to get it round the wrong way.

Well, hopefully that is the case.

[ricktas]

Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

Disagree. The great masters of Art, did not have diplomas or degrees when they painted the Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel, Monet's garden. Ansell Adams and the other great photographers were self taught, not a degree to be seen.

Yes in some fields (medicine etc) a degree is important, but in ART, it is not.

[Kym]

Yes in some fields (medicine etc) a degree is important, but in ART, it is not.

Only as a baseline. Dr Jayant Patel (Doctor Death) anyone? He had degrees, including a Master in Surgery!

[zollo]

The great masters of Art, did not have diplomas or degrees when they painted the Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel, Monet's garden. Ansell Adams and the other great photographers were self taught, not a degree to be seen.

Yes in some fields (medicine etc) a degree is important, but in ART, it is not.

A few points from Wiki sticking with Ansel Adams as he is most relevant to photography. He associated and learnt from many other artists and photographers, see Wiki extracts below

In New Mexico, he was introduced to notables from Stieglitz's circle, including painter Georgia O'Keeffe, artist John Marin, and photographer Paul Strand, all of whom created famous works during their stays in the Southwest. Adams's talkative, high-spirited nature combined with his excellent piano playing made him a hit within his enlarging circle of elite artist friends.[32] Strand especially proved influential, sharing secrets of his technique with Adams, and finally convincing Adams to pursue photography with all his talent and energy. One of Strand's suggestions which Adams immediately adopted was to use glossy paper rather than matte to intensify tonal values

and

he joined the prestigious Roxburghe Club, an association devoted to fine printing and high standards in book arts. He learned much about printing techniques, inks, design, and layout which he later applied to other projects.

He clearly was not all "self taught" and nor was he against education within photography, see below

He also taught photography by giving workshops in Detroit and his pupils included future photographer Todd Webb.[41] Adams also began his first serious stint of teaching in 1941 at the Art Center School of Los Angeles, which included the training of military photographers

Looks to me like Adams did not have a problem with learning and with students wanting to be taught in a formal fashion.

Ansell Adams and the other great photographers were self taught, not a degree to be seen

Really? Adams received a Doctor of Arts from both Harvard and Yale universities. He was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1966

[ricktas]

Really? Adams received a Doctor of Arts from both Harvard and Yale universities. He was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1966

Umm, perhaps look into this a bit further, these where honorary degrees, given to him AFTER his work became world renown. His degrees did not make him a better photographer, they were awarded because he was a great photographer.

[Kym]

it's not what you know, it's what you can prove what you know. This is how the world works.
Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

I call total 100% BS on that!

A degree or qual might get you into a graduate/trainee job, but after a year or two its all about experience.
I'm in a senior IT role and I can tell you my qualifications mean zero, zip, nada!
What got me my job was my previous demonstrated experience, not all the certificates I have.
Further, I know a couple of PHDs that I would never employ, they don't cut it in the real commercial world and are relegated to academia.

With photography its the portfolio and customer references.
You are right in saying "it's what you can prove what you know" in that you need a great portfolio to sell yourself as a photographer.

I know some highly awarded and qualified photographers, some are members of AP, my respect for them is in their work, not the letters after their name.

Edit:
I'm not saying study is not useful, in fact I do courses all the time,
but they are for my benefit to learn some new product or skill, which I then need to apply in real life.
The application is what others see, the certificate is pointless unless it's some sort of required OH&S cert.

[Wayne]

I will be in Mackay regularly for a day here and there starting next week, if you want to catch up, play with some Nikon gear etc send me a PM and I will bring some gear along.

[ricktas]

As for courses.

If you are going to do a diploma course, do an accredited and recognised one. Many (the Photography Institute for example) offer diploma courses that are not a recognised qualification. Basically they make their own course up, print their own diploma, but it is not from a Registered Training Organisation (RTO). The result is a diploma that is about as useful (employment wise) as buying a degree from some Nigerian University off the net.

If you wish to do a course, look at a recognised photographic diploma, probably the best one is : Diploma of Photo-imaging (CUV50407) : which gives you a nationally recognised Diploma from an RTO, that actually means you have reached a specific level of study and should be competent at doing what the diploma is issued for, and it can be used for employment purposes etc. This diploma will have printed on it, that it is a national recognised qualification, and detail the RTO's registration number, etc

If you want to focus on the Genre that interest you, then look at photography workshops instead of courses. Workshops usually are single day, or weekend and focus on a particular genre. Landscapes, weddings, studio etc. They tend to be more hands-on, get in and do it, and we will tell you settings, explain the why's etc as you enjoy the day or weekend.

Sadly, there are now a lot of non-registered training businesses set-up, and they offer courses that seem to be about getting a real diploma, when they are not. My personal thoughts are that these businesses should have to state in all communication (their website, any letters, and all documentation) that they are NOT a registered training authority and that any qualification received does not necessarily meet the Australian education standards for a diploma, etc.

Workshops, are often run by professional photographers, or others, to focus on one genre, or one particular aspect of photography (lighting workshop for example). These workshops are not run by RTO's but ultimately you get a good knowledge of the particular workshop topic, and there are probably more practical for most photographers, as they are hands-on and get you taking photos, not writing essays on the why's and how's of a grey scale chart, or the variations in kelvin values. (which are good to have a knowledge of, but don't make you a good photographer..taking photos and practice does that).

[arthurking83]

If it were me in this situation, I'd be spending my time/money on a course that really matters.

Something like graphic design, where you learn to become more proficient with software like Adobe's CS, or even a (short)business course where you become better acquainted with learning how to manage the finances of the business itself.

Photography is best learned in a more practical manner where you simply go out and practise lots, and lots.

As already said, post up images for CC. Not that our opinions really matter as much as those of the prospective clients, but having other opinions on how to better capture an image can help you understand what it is that you want.

Once you know what it is that you want, how to achieve it and how to present it, then you're in a better position to sell yourself, and your product, to your customers.

[kiwi]

pretty good point there ak

seems to me a lot of people that post this sort of question just simply dont take enough photos and learn the hard way

[KeeFy]

"Forget about the profession of being a photographer. First be a photographer and maybe the profession will come after. Don’t be in a rush to pay your rent with your camera. Jimi Hendrix didn’t decide on the career of professional musician before he learned to play guitar. No, he loved music and created something beautiful and that THEN became a profession. Larry Towell, for instance, was not a “professional” photographer until he was already a “famous” photographer. Make the pictures you feel compelled to make and perhaps that will lead to a career. But if you try to make the career first, you will just make sh*tty pictures that you don’t care about." - Christopher Anderson

[sonickel77]

I'd say a course is only useful if it teaches you stuff you'd take years to find out on your own.
I'm doing a Cert IV in Photoimaging, one subject at a time, and I think it's helping me evolve as a photographer quicker than if I was trying to teach myself.

[mcmahong]

A couple of years ago, I took an uninformed leap into an online photography course (I won't say which one, but I got there from clicking on an advertisement in Facebook). It was an Australian course and run by a well-known photographer, so it seemed promising. I found it very interesting with some worthwhile exercises that doubled up as assignments. I learned a fair bit of theory. However the level of critique in the assessment of those assignments was very lenient and dead-easy to pass. One of them, I barely even made an effort, and still got top marks.

Although they have a dedicated Facebook community of students, advertise one-on-one assistance from tutors, which is true, the problem was the lack of human interaction and that 'hands-on' experience.

After completing the 1-year course online, and nailing the assignments, I can't really say that I am that much of a better photographer for it. Sure, I learned a few important and useful tricks, but probably nothing I wouldn't have picked up from one day in a studio with real people.

If I had my time again, I'd follow Rick's suggestions here and do a series of workshops that suit your particular need, or do your homework on courses that are very interactive and challenging. The theory is really for interest, but the practical knowledge you'll gain from solid practice and being amongst people (workshops, get-together groups, working for other professionals) is a million times more beneficial.