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Thanks useful information: 58
Agree. but there are 22 posts in this thread (out of 40 replies at this time) that are about outsourcing. I think the outsourcing issue had become THE topic in this thread for a while, rather than one aspect of pricing your photography. My notice was trying to get some balance back into the thread.Originally Posted by Longshots
"It is one thing to make a picture of what a person looks like, it is another thing to make a portrait of who they are" - Paul Caponigro
Constructive Critique of my photographs is always appreciated
Nikon, etc!
RICK
My Photography
There are many aspects, but significantly -
Specifically, for Wedding and Portrait Photography: because, in all cases of which I am aware, the former has:
Product Branding
Service Branding
Principal Branding
And, then employs a strategic, targeted, multi-channelled, content aligned, repetitive marketing for each of those three Brandings.
On the other hand, I have noticed often, the latter, at the most, makes a website and then fails within about six months to update it.
All of the elements listed above which the former employs are real costs, to the business.
WW
Last edited by William W; 26-10-2011 at 10:35am. Reason: added first clause (in italics now) which I originally missed when I cut and paste from my draft.
Specifically for selling the exact same “widget” from a bricks and mortar store, in direct competition to another bricks and mortar store next door:
The answer is – “it depends”.
It is possible to sell exact same widgets at a reasonable price above the competition, not enter a discount war with another B&M store and still make a profit.
There are many elements to it, and too many to list without moving off topic, but suffice to say:
on topic - there are indeed some Wedding Photographers whose business is set up to sell widgets: very often that is by accident and not design.
However, I have noticed that those who do purposefully set up their Wedding Photography Business to sell widgets, are very good at it and are more than not are also priced just reasonably above the masses of others, who sell Widget Wedding Photography, who didn’t plan their business that way, but rather just winged it and it happened so to be.
WW
Sorry Peter, but shooting and providing a product where the fee is in the region you quoted is simply not a "one-day job".
Its that very big misunderstanding of the genre that effects in a negative manner those entering or considering entering the market.
if only weddings were an actual 'one day job', I'd have so much more free time
The reference to the time period was of course to the wedding day. No need to play games with semantics.
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Cheers
PeterB666
Olympus Pen F with Metabones Speed Booster and Laowa 12mm f/2.8 or Voigtlander 10.5mm f/0.95 or Nikon D800 with the Laowa 12mm f/2.8. The need to keep in touch with the past is a Nikon Photomic FTn or Nikon F2A and a Nikkor 25-50mm f/4 AI
Very few clients would give a stuff about your costs. The client is far more likely to be concerned about getting perceived value for money for a service and product at a desired level of quality that they want.
The cost of providing that service isn't their problem.
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Last edited by peterb666; 26-10-2011 at 2:52pm.
I agree that clients will not really care two hoots about my costs.
Taking ALL my costs into consideration, when establishing my Pricing, is NOT basing pricing SOLELY on costs – but rather just ensuring that at least a gross profit will be above my break-even point.
I haven’t noticed in the thread, that there is a die-hard camp suggesting that pricing is based SOLELY on costs: maybe I missed it?
WW
Why can some attract $10,000? Because some wedding photographers may have many more costs like large studio/base/offices, accountants, anything up to several hundreds of thousands of $ worth of gear to insure, retouchers/receptionists/sales people/album designers to pay plus secondary costs related to them (work cover, super etc), printers, servers etc etc etc etc.
These photographers would obviously be reaping the benefits of their reputations, but I can guarantee most, if not all, would know exactly what their costs are.
Then again, maybe they don't have these additional costs, and they're simply exceptional sales people... But they would still understand their costs and see them as the base for their pricing considerations
Last edited by jasevk; 26-10-2011 at 3:41pm.
Living the dream...
Agree, and I would say also one work MARKETING. When I lived in the UK, one of my friends/acquantances managed to get a low level royal wedding, as the photographer. He used that to market to other 'well to do' familes and now shoots exclusively for the upper classes for serious $$. Does he shoot better than a $1500 photographer, probably not. It is all about opportunities and marketing.
I think, when talking about amateur wedding photography, price has nothing at all to do with skill, cost, or anything else. It's just a random amount from a couple hundred to maybe 1k depending on how much the amateur can convince the B&G to pay. We've seen enough weddings shot for a couple hundred by a person who bought their DSLR kit a month ago and also amateurs with N-years experience who don't feel they can charge yet.
In fact I've seen some pros talk in their 'about' page about how they did their 1st job with absolutely no experience with a camera. I think it's all random.
Then kudos to the OP for coming here and asking for assistance in how to price her packages and also for her seeking assistance from fellow Wedding and Portrait photographers for more general ideas about setting up a W&P business.. . . We've seen enough weddings shot for a couple hundred by a person who bought their DSLR kit a month ago and also amateurs with N-years experience who don't feel they can charge yet.
In fact I've seen some pros talk in their 'about' page about how they did their 1st job with absolutely no experience with a camera. I think it's all random.
WW
Actually I wasnt being pedantic. The assumption that the wedding photographers work is all done on the day is a common misconception. And the real hours spent would be many days by some photographers on each wedding.
And to respond also to your second comment about the customers not giving two hoots about the photographers costs - couldnt agree with you more. But this topic is all about giving photographers advice on how to asses their costs. So on that we agreee.
This is a topic about "how much should I charge", the most common question.
So the point is all about what costs to take into account before you can draw up a model of charges.
Well to put it in the same simple terms - "Charge what your client thinks you are worth".
Last edited by peterb666; 26-10-2011 at 9:49pm.
I should add there is a little formula in its most pure form would be
"Charge what your client thinks you are worth" - costs > 0 = think about being a wedding photographer
"Charge what your client thinks you are worth" - costs < 0 = stick to the day job.
That's how costs come into the equation.
On so many levels I agree with you Peter, the trouble is that clients have a much lower value on photography then was considered just a few years ago. And the real problem has become that client understanding of worth is below a sustainable rate, and I dont mean someone thats decided to rely on photography as full time profession, but also include any professional supply service. So its really important for even the part timers to include important costs such as basic public liability insurance - so they dont lose the family home if some guest tries to blame their drunken stumble on the poor placement of the photographers tripod or bag.
For me a wedding is about 1- 1/2 weeks - when you factor in meetings with the clients, a pre shoot, post processing - scouting the venue's, travel etc - time spent on phone email etc.
Some may spend more time - some less - but that's how i've structured my fee's -
Weddings return less per hour than portrait shoots or other work - but i like them and they keep you on your toe's - but do i want to do 50 weddings a year - NO
To be fair, anything Jasmine Star recommends would have comercial value to her. I'm not even sure how much of an active photographer she is these days, which renders whatever workflow she might preach somewhat irrelevant.
You're better off getting advice from a low profile photographer who is churning through 40-50 weddings a year, rather than a glorified blogger who gets kickbacks for every recommendation.
The DEFINITION of Jasmine Star's Business, I doubt is anywhere near the same Definition of most Wedding Photographers’ businesses.
This is one reason why it is important to: Define the Business, which one wants to build.
WW
Last edited by William W; 30-10-2011 at 9:48pm.
Not wanting to get off topic, but who is Jasmine Star and why is she important?
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