Thank you for the answer.Originally Posted by peterb666
Not my intention to take the thread off the topic: I simply wanted my question answered, by the author of the comment.
WW
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Thanks useful information: 58
Thank you for the answer.
Not my intention to take the thread off the topic: I simply wanted my question answered, by the author of the comment.
WW
I would never sell unedited images (some good arguments and discussion on it in this DPS post).
Interestingly, even some high-profile photographers, such as Jasmine Star, outsource their post-processing.
Jasmine uses Photographer's Edit, who charge upto a few hundred dollars to post-process a set of wedding photos. According to this post, it looks like Jasmine does some culling and initial processing in LightRoom, then uses Photographer's Edit to create the final result, with the photos being turned around by them in less than 7 business days.
I don't like the idea of out-sourcing the post-processing of my photos, as it means I am delegating the responsibility of the processing to someone else, and losing control of that part of the creative process.
Out sourcing is different to those who employ people within their studios to process their images.
Just thought it was worthwhile pointing out the difference.
PS I wouldnt outsource post production, but I would outsource Album design. Just a personal choice.
Last edited by Longshots; 23-10-2011 at 9:12pm.
My my how the digital revolution has affected the way we work. I wonder how many of you used to 'outsource' the processing of your film?
To the OP: Please get some more experience shooting weddings before daring to charge a stranger to shoot their wedding. It sounds like you are riding on a bit of a high after having so much fun - but there is so much more to being a successful wedding photographer than that. Do a workshop (or 3) and second shoot (or just carry the bag) for a few different shooters. I admire your vigour but take a step back, forget about 'how much money you could be making for doing something you love' and get your hands dirty first.
Well actually, to be specific, outsourcing the processing of your film was pretty standard, as most couldnt cope with the time and investment of owning and running their own processing for colour films.
So while I personally couldnt envisage it, as post processing for me is part of the creative phoographic process, I can understand why a percentage outsource.
back on track please: This thread was about wedding photography quoting, please let's try and get it back on track..thanks
Last edited by ricktas; 24-10-2011 at 7:45am.
"It is one thing to make a picture of what a person looks like, it is another thing to make a portrait of who they are" - Paul Caponigro
Constructive Critique of my photographs is always appreciated
Nikon, etc!
RICK
My Photography
This to me is the only way to set your pricing. If you arbitrarily set it based on what others are charging and taking into consideration where you think your skill level is at then you may be setting yourself up to fail in a business sense. You will not be able to succeed or even continue in business if you are effectively making a loss from every wedding, portrait shoot etc. It's OK if you have a wealthy spouse who can subsidise the photography but somewhere down the line it needs to make money in a real sense. Jasevk example is good but has not included what he wants to get paid from it and even a little profit.I've done a 12 month plan, and this dictates my price for wedding and portrait sessions.
Firstly, I determined ALL my costs: insurances, business cards/flyers etc, advertising, website, professional membership fees, car running costs, telephone and electricity costs, presentation boxes, discs, prints, office equipment, gear upgrades and maintenance etc etc etc.
Then I estimated that 75% of my costs would be sitting with weddings. So I totalled up all my annual costs and split it 75 weddings, 25 portraits.
So let's say for example, my annual cost is $10,000. Therefore my annual cost for weddings is $7500 and for portraits is $2500. I then estimated that I would do 3 weddings this year and 10 portrait sessions.
So now I know that, each wedding I need to make $2,500, and $250 for each portrait session just to break even. Do I set these as base prices? For Weddings, pretty much, have 4 weddings locked in, so I'll make a profit this year. For portraits... no, because if I tell someone they need to pay 250 upfront before they receive anything, they'll tell me to jump! So I accept some risk and set a modest sitting fee and do my best to produce great images and sell some prints etc.
Right wrong or indifferent, this is my approach, and it's seen my costs covered and some profit to invest into some new gear, which as a part-timer with another full time income, I'm happy with at this stage
The discussion about outsourcing is in a way applicable to the discussion because if you wish to go down that track then it has to be included in how you work out your costs. Outsourcing may in the ned make you money. If outsopurcing allows you to work ON the business as opposed to IN the business that could be what makes you more success ful than the next photographer.
Vince
Space; The Final Frontier
C & C encouraged on all images
Thanks for pointing that out, those details and costs are to be include in my 2012/13 plan, or 'stage 2' of my longer term plan.
I think it was important to keep this realistic in the current market, and assume that I would only operate as part time at best. My plan is to increase my desired 'wage' progressively over the next 5yrs.
Living the dream...
No response from the OP as yet?
I thought thats what we were talking about as well ?
Because outsourcing is a very important part of pricing your wedding photography. And while the OP hasnt returned with a response, the discussion that evolved (important word that) is surely helpful to both viewers and discussion participants. My apologies, I dont want to question your judgement, but the issues are very much related.
Can you please create a new topic then ? As the conversation is a beneficial one for anyone wanting to understand the basics of this fairly simple question.
I'd like to add an issue on the outsourcing, which I dont disagree with, but want to highlight a well known former issue for unhappy customers in the wedding industry.
And its particularly in response to this comment "If outsopurcing allows you to work ON the business as opposed to IN the business that could be what makes you more successful than the next photographer." Exactly, at what point do you want to be "in the business" ? And at what point "ON" ?
Because the former issue I referred to is one of outsourcing everything, which includes the photographer by the studio commissioned to shoot the wedding - and the first time the bride and groom know about it, is when the photographer, who has been subcontracted by the studio hired by the bride and groom to supply wedding photography coverage.
In my time I've met several "photographers" who dont actually do anything other than sell the business of photography, being particularly good salespeople, and not particularly successful shooters. I'm well aware of the practie of litereally outsourcing everything. So the analogy of being On as opposed to In, is excellent; but just seen and understood from a very different perspective.
Now, while this is frowned upon by the more ethical side of the industry, its not unusual for it to happen, and there is absolutely no guarantee, that the images shown to the prospective bride and groom to secure a booking, will have any relationship to what is produced by the subcontracted photographer. My own partner, had such an experience, with the photographer photographing her wedding was a total surprise, as she had understood that she'd booked a particular personality, and not the stranger who went on to ruin her day, and produce woeful images. The contract with the photographer/studio wasnt exactly breaching the law at the time, but it was/is unethical.
So, all of these types of options need to be considered, before meeting with a potential customer.
In the OP's case, they've shot the wedding, and now want to know what to charge. A classic case of Cart before the Horse. I cant imagine anyone doing this, but of course it happens in many other areas in addition to photography ie setting someone on a course of action to produce a service without agreeing on costs prior to the event. Always a mad choice.
BTW I think Jasevk's response to date had been the most helpful
Except for one caveat noted below, outsourcing has nothing to do with pricing. It is a cost. The thing outsourcing allows you to do is to concentrate on the high value components of your job and you can spend your time doing that while others do the lower value work. Outsourcing is a way of maximising your return compared to your input.
Pricing is determined on your skill and reputation and the level of demand you can create for your work. If pricing was determined on costs, they everyone can be a successful wedding photographer and god help us.
The quality of work from outsourcing has an impact on your reputation and therefore how much you can charge. Keeping control of the quality including work outsourced is one of the skills required when outsourcing is used.
Last edited by peterb666; 25-10-2011 at 1:29pm. Reason: fix spelling and add a bit.
Cheers
PeterB666
Olympus Pen F with Metabones Speed Booster and Laowa 12mm f/2.8 or Voigtlander 10.5mm f/0.95 or Nikon D800 with the Laowa 12mm f/2.8. The need to keep in touch with the past is a Nikon Photomic FTn or Nikon F2A and a Nikkor 25-50mm f/4 AI
Sorry, but I must disagree and make 2 points:
- pricing should be based on the quality of your work PLUS your costs. I would call into question, the business skills of anybody who did not see costs as an absolutely critical element of their pricing process.
- why should a photographer disclose to a client whether they outsource this or not? I base this comment on the hypothetical scenario where a photographer has built a working relationship with a competent retoucher, who understands the photographers artistic direction.
Wrong, right or indifferent, that's my 2cents worth on that
Sorry - have to disagree with that
Knowing your costs, has everything to do with pricing. And as you say outsourcing is a cost, and therefore everything to do with pricing. So if you dont know your costs, you wont know what to price something at and still make money.
But on your second:
Well actually in practice it isnt. For many reasons. One of them rather obvious, and related. Which is that if you dont know what your costs are, you're also not likely to know your skill level, or even reputation. So again answering the OP, you need to have a good idea of your costs before you can attempt a pricing structure. Yes, you can then take into account your skill level and reputation.
Your third paragraph, I agree entirely. But if your outsourcing of say photo processing/retouching costs more than the total charged initially, then its obvious you're going to lose money.
So the costs have to be taken into account to formulate a pricing structure.
And I'm afraid that the OP's initial question suggests that you may actually be right, because so many people think that then can be a wedding photographer - successful; is probably subjective. I'm sure that I'm not alone in knowing the conundrum of successful wedding photographers that are a) losing money or b) making money but producing woeful photos - I know a very small percentage who are both successful in producing amazing images and making an above average income as a result.
RE - Setting prices for a new Wedding Photography Business:
Any cost (fiscal or time) to a business might and most likely always will have an effect on pricing the product or service of that business.
More noticeably: the comparative costs to a business between two ALTERNATIVE costs which are DISLIKE in nature will need to be closely considered and evaluated, as being different in nature, they do not allow for a simple A/B comparison.,
For example – the cost of Outsourcing Digital Post Production is a fiscal cost; but a time value-add and whilst we might evaluate the Photographer’s time at $200.00 per hour, based upon a base “shooting time” and reconcile that against the cost of outsourcing PP at $50.00 per hour cost as a net fiscal gain – the comparison and the balance sheet are skewed, if the Photographer is down the pub and NOT out shooting for those addition hours whilst the PP is outsourced.
But irrespective of that and assuming the quality of the outsourcing service is acceptable – the cost of that outsourcing service is very likely relevant, apropos the setting of the Wedding Photography Prices, even in the most simple of equations and within a simple Business Plan.
As one simple example and irrespective of any ACTUAL prices charged, based solely upon the “time value-add” of Outsourcing PP would give a working Photographer who was beginning a new business and assuming a planned growth, for that business:
We Define the Business we want and then we write a Business Plan which conforms to that Definition . . . and we find that the Business Plan evolves to contain:
- a requirement outcome, to build the business over the first four years such that the shoot rate is to be 60 weddings per year, at beginning of year four.
- the procedure attributed to that outcome was to market on competitive price to maximize the growth of the Client Rate.
- quantifying the "time value add" to the Photographer of outsourcing the PP, the estimate is that, at point “30 Weddings per year” – there will be a definite need to be outsourcing some of the PP, to allow 31 weddings per year, to be shot.
- Therefore the cost of that Outsourcing PP, will have to be made to account, in respect of the pricing of the Wedding Coverage, because it will, at growth point “31 wedding per year” have an effect upon the real costs to the business (i.e. the business has to pay it). And continue to pay it, thereafter, until after the growth point target is reached.
- BUT - moreover, the EXPECTATION of the cost of Outsourcing the PP has to be taken into account when pricing the Wedding Photography Coverage initially: because by the definition of “Wedding Photography Bookings” - the growth point 31 per year will be reached with many booking ALREADY IN PLACE and at an already CONTRACTED and FIRM PRICE.
Now this outsourcing example might or might not affect the OP in respect of her specific situation – but it does provide to an example of the content which would be detailed in her Business Plan.
However, before the Business Plan is drafted, the Business must be clearly Defined – both were suggested to the OP, earlier.
WW
I think a lot of part timers look at it simply
What did I earn today sitting on my arse watching repeats of Oprah versus the $500 cash I now have in my pocket
And that's about it
Darren
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Website : http://www.peakactionimages.com
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Constructive Critique of my images always appreciated
and what happens when a) it cost you more than the cash in your pocket (ie you didnt have public liability insurance, a wedding guest trips over your bag, and the only money you still have is the cash in your pocket thanks to the legal system where solicitors flourish on the no win no fee system on liabilityy claims, and b) the ATO are knocking on you door about undeclared income, as specifically this year and last year part time photographers who dont declare their income is on their hit list.
Good luck with the Oprah repeats
All very good questions and that's were a bit of research and a business plan come into play. A well thought out business plan should address those issues and take them into consideration to help determine if someone should be heading down the path of photography as a business. There are many good photographers and not all will make good business people.
There have been some interesting views on pricing here and some have hit the mark.
Maybe it is easiest to relate to a simple scenario that most would be familiar with.
Imagine two camera shops side by side. Store A has a high turnover and has negotiated a very good discount from rrp on the stock they buy.
Store B has a low turnover and consequently has a much smaller discount from the rrp on the stock they buy.
They pay the same rent; have the same number of staff and other expenses.
Store A can sell you that wonderful 10-200mm f/2* ultra zoom for $1500 because they have priced their stuff at cost plus.
(* obviously a bit of artisitic licence in the scenario)
Store B can sell you that wonderful 10-200mm f/2 ultra zoom for $1900 because they have priced their stuff at cost plus.
Where are you going to buy that lens?
Of course there are different variations on that scenario where both enter a discounting war and store A sells the lens for $1400 and makes say $200 and Store B would like to match the price but the lens cost them $1450? If you are Store B, do you sell at a loss and how long can you endure that?
I wonder why people don’t think similar scenarios do not apply to other goods and services. Wedding photography is a service and produces tangible goods as an outcome. People are buying quality and the photographer’s experience and an expectation that a good product will be delivered. If you should only price your wedding photography based on cost plus (as some seem to claim), what is the point of providing a better service and better photography? You would be wasting your time. That is not how the market works.
Why are some wedding photographers able to charge $10,000 and more for a one-day job using a single shooter while other’s struggle to command $1,500? It isn’t the cost of doing the work although the costs may be different. The customer doesn't give a stuff about YOUR costs and the customer is the only one that is going to give you money.
When setting up a business, regardless of what that business is, I would recommend the following (and in addition to any other skills you need, e.g. as a photographer):
1. Go to your local TAFE or other centre that provides courses in small business management. You can do a short course that will teach you about creating business plans, pricing, the legal aspect of running a business, the types of business structures you can use, marketing, book-keeping etc. A few hundred dollars well spent.
2. Do your research. Get to know who is operating in your area, their experience and pricing etc.
3. Get as much experience as you can relevant to the business, e.g. as a second shooter and learn how the type of business operates, learn where the costs are, the risks and the opportunities for making a bit of higher value income for little effort.
4. Develop a realistic and conservative business plan. You will need to be able to estimate expected costings and future income. This needs to be based on more than just a wish. Create several scenarios to determine what you will need to bring in income that to cover the expenses. This will not determine what you can charge but will help you figure out if you can make the venture worthwhile based on the knowledge gained along the way and the next point.
5. Before investing heavily, test the market and determine whether people are willing to pay the sort of money you need.
The bottom line to pricing is to price your goods and services to what the market will accept. If you price to cover costs and the market thinks you are too expensive for the perceived quality and service you are offering, you will not get work.
If you price to cover costs plus a margin and have underestimated your potential, you will not earn as much as you could have. One of the advantages of photography as a business is that if you already own suitable gear and can do your own processing, printing etc, then the overheads are low and you should not make a loss. By not knowing what you can get within the market you operate, then you run the risk of not earning to your full potential.
If you are going to set up as a part-time business and have that all important “day-time” job, you will be fine regardless of what happens. If you are expecting to make a living out of it, you really do need to do a lot more work.
That’s the best advice that I can offer and it applies to any business venture. You are under no obligation to take my advice.
Last edited by peterb666; 25-10-2011 at 10:33pm.
Ophooey ya scared her awayI wanted to see the wedding pics
cheers
Jan
Excellent advice, and coincidentally I do a presentation with a similar hypothetical scenario.
My scenario was very similar.
Which is dont just produce a charge based on what your competition is charging, because if it costs you to work, then you are definitely going to lose money.
My personal experience is that many start photographic businesses with absolutely no research into viable business plans, and instead "check" what photographers are apparently charging, and then "produce" their charges based on offering a lower rate. Guaranteed fail.
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