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View Poll Results: Voting change

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  • Yes, I currently vote and would continue to vote using this method

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  • No, I currently vote but this method would put me off

    13 27.66%
  • Gravy, I don't care either way

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  • Yes, I don't currently vote but would start to using the proposed method

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Thread: A change to competition voting using points - discussion - Test comp in place

  1. #1
    It's all about the Light!
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    A change to competition voting using points - discussion - Test comp in place

    One thing that has come up in the past threads is how our competition voting works.
    Historically it was limited by how the vBulletin polls work, but I have a way to deal with that.

    We could change the voting system (optionally per competition) to a points system where members have to put 1..10 for each entry.
    (Most likely with a 10 element radio button so you don't type a number)

    Such a scoring system could be applied to either qualifying and/or final votes.

    Ideally scoring would be on the basis of 1..10 points:
    three (3) for technical merit,
    three (3) for subject matter, theme, composition and
    four (4) for impact.

    Edit: See the voting guide
    Thus every image would get a score and some implicit feedback much like a camera club.

    The downside is voting would take a bit longer as members would need to rate each entry.

    It would require some programming to implement, so we're interested in members views on this before investing the effort.

    Please vote on this poll and comment as to how this would affect how you vote and whether you feel it would be a better way to go.



    There is a TEST competition for you to vote on!

    http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...ad.php?t=92133 Have a go
    Last edited by Kym; 24-09-2011 at 7:17am.
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    I'm for it , I vote on all now , And would continue to do so , Maybe not all comps , But a selected few at first to see how it goes , Mind you I'm not doing the work setting it up "Kym"
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  3. #3
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    Count me in too.. I don't mind spending a Little more time though I am with Bill here, a selected few at first sounds good to me..

    I shoot with Canon And Olympus Cameras



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    Hmm, I'd still vote either way...

    I think it probably needs a bit more specification:
    • How is it applied? For example, in the preliminary voting, do the top nnn with the highest average score go through to the final vote?
    • If there are 30-40 photos (say), and all need to be judged/scored, there might start to be some inconsistency in scoring towards the end of all the photos. (Maybe the order could be randomised user by user?)
    • Might selection of the top scoring be two steps. ie we can score for up to 10 of 30 photos, and the top four who have received at least nnn votes go through to the final voting?


    I think it would be an interesting change, but as you suggested, applied to particular comps, or final voting rather than preliminary.

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    I think that if everone voted in the manner you have put forward Kym....then would there be any need for a final vote run? In my opinion it would be a non event....unless a different set of people voted in the final run. I`m all for it anyway.....
    Last edited by old dog; 14-09-2011 at 1:46pm.
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    I admire the constant desire for you guys to keep implementing changes things like this, but my gut feeling is the more complex you make it the less people will use it.

  7. #7
    Ausphotography Veteran Speedway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
    I admire the constant desire for you guys to keep implementing changes things like this, but my gut feeling is the more complex you make it the less people will use it.
    My thoughts too Art.
    Keith.

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    Ausphotography Regular agb's Avatar
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    If it is going to take longer and be more complex to make a selection I think it will put people off voting. I know it would for me. I have enough trouble now when I do get around to voting when there are a lot of photos to go through.
    The age of entitlement isn't over, it's just over there where you can't get to it.
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  9. #9
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    Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    How is it applied? For example, in the preliminary voting, do the top nnn with the highest average score go through to the final vote?
    Yes, the principals would be the same as now. I.e. top N qualify. (in the old days it was always top 5)

    If there are 30-40 photos (say), and all need to be judged/scored, there might start to be some inconsistency in scoring towards the end of all the photos. (Maybe the order could be randomised user by user?)
    The entries are randomised already (they have been for over a year), try restarting the vote process before you click vote, the entries will be in a different order.
    Each member gets the entries presented in random order for fairness reasons.

    Might selection of the top scoring be two steps. ie we can score for up to 10 of 30 photos, and the top four who have received at least nnn votes go through to the final voting?
    I would expect voting (1..10 scoring) on all entires in the qualifying round and then just pick a winner of the top N .

    I think it would be an interesting change, but as you suggested, applied to particular comps, or final voting rather than preliminary.
    I would see it apply more so to the preliminary (qualifying) vote so everyone gets some points.

    As I posted previously... (Which prompted this idea)
    In a camera club comp where there are a lot of very good images, they may get 8,9 or even 10 points from the judge.
    This happened last meeting where several photo's all scored 10, the judge had to pick the night's winner from those and did that fairly quickly.

    Let's translate that to our popular vote here, say 5 out of 50.
    Only the 9's and 10's (assuming there were judged by a competent person) would get the bulk of the votes, even though the 8's are very good images.
    This gives a distorted view of the low scoring images, I would say 95% of entires on AP comps would get at least 7+ at a camera club
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by old dog View Post
    I think that if everyone voted in the manner you have put forward Kym....then would there be any need for a final vote run? In my opinion it would be a non event....unless a different set of people voted in the final run. I`m all for it anyway.....
    That is also possible, this is purely a discussion of an idea for now.
    Edit: On 2nd thoughts as polls are hidden until the comp is over... there is the final vote suspense factor which we would not want to lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
    I admire the constant desire for you guys to keep implementing changes things like this, but my gut feeling is the more complex you make it the less people will use it.
    That is our major concern. Which is why this is being discussed.
    Rick and the team have discussed it previously and this has been the reason it was not done before.

    That said there would be a simple way to do it ... 10 radio buttons per image (1..10), click one, so its not significantly more onerous than the current system.
    The benefit is every image gets a rating, which is probably fairer.
    Last edited by Kym; 15-09-2011 at 8:25am.

  10. #10
    Ausphotography Regular Boo53's Avatar
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    Kym

    My first reaction was, "Oh God I'd be at it for hours- I don't have the time".

    BUT, after taking a deep breathe, making another cup of coffee, etc; I can see that not only would there be benefit for the entrants as they would get better feedback, but it would also be better for me as I'd be forced to consider each of the elements in greater detail when actually formally marking a score, which would, hopefully, translate into me correctly considering those elements in my own shots as well.

    BUT, if there was only 12-15 entries that would be ok, but I think most comps have upwards of 80-90 entrants so I don't think I'd ever find the time.

    Now, greater minds than mine will, I'm sure, come up with the correct answer to this but, if you do go towards this style I think we'd need the ability to score a few, save our work and be able to come back to it. I couldn't do it all at once.

  11. #11
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    As I may have been one of the ones that may have brought this on.
    1. I don't mind the current system, I think it works well. My only thing was when it's a three tear system. There is more to vote on in the intermediate than the other two.
    2. The above system would work well if they were independently judged. Or would work OK if a small amount of entries. But when like last weeks POTW over the three tears there was 89 entries. I think it would become a bit tedious, long winded.
    I know when there is many entries, I pick a top 10 out of the thumbnails. Then in full image concentrate on those images to pick a top 4 - 5.
    Last edited by geoffsta; 14-09-2011 at 4:36pm.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffsta View Post
    I know when there is many entries, I pick a top 10 out of the thumbnails. Then in full image concentrate on those images to pick a top 4 - 5.
    The system presents full sized images for voting, so unless you click the thumb button for each one it is quite tedious to cull to thumbs

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    I try to vote on all Comps as a learning experience so would continue if system changed.
    My daughter (Babyswine) & I often have trouble with all the pics loading on a comp thread & have to refresh the thread to get to load properly. If this system was implemented then all images wouldn't have to be in the same thread. Could have 2 or three threads with say 20 images in each.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandapics View Post
    My daughter (Babyswine) & I often have trouble with all the pics loading on a comp thread & have to refresh the thread to get to load properly.
    That should not be a problem since we moved to the new server, have you had this issue in the last 4 weeks?

  15. #15
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    I see another option here. Rather than having to rate each and every entry, we could modify our formula for the number of entries you have to vote on, based on number of entries:

    Currently the formula is:

    Entries Spread Min Votes Max Votes
    10 2 2 4
    20 2 2 4
    40 2 2 4
    50 2 3 5
    60 2 4 6
    70 3 4 7
    80 3 5 8
    90 3 6 9
    100 3 7 10
    110 3 8 11
    120 3 9 12

    Which could easily become

    Entries Spread Min Votes Max Votes
    10 2 4 6
    20 2 6 8
    40 2 8 10
    50 2 8 10
    60 2 10 12
    70 3 10 12
    80 3 12 14
    90 3 12 14
    100 3 14 16
    110 3 16 18
    120 3 18 20

    etc. So you get to chose more entries in the preliminary voting round.
    Last edited by ricktas; 14-09-2011 at 6:10pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricktas View Post
    So you get to chose more entries in the preliminary voting round.
    Does that mean still keeping the limit on the number of entries in the final voting closer to the first table than the second? After all, I can't see voting for 18 top entries in qualifying and then having to choose only 1 of 18 in the final vote.

    The point of giving a wider voting choice, IMHO, is to ensure that those who just miss Top 4,5 or 6 selections are encouraged to keep trying. At the moment there is no feedback to them that says "you only just missed out" as the primary votes only are counted in qualifying. Out of say 10 images, 1 might get 30 votes, the next 4 get 3-15 each, and the remainder just get 0, 1 or 2. From repeated experience I can tell you that getting 0, 1 or 2 votes is DIScouraging and counter-productive to the aim of the system. With a split system, at least entrants would have some idea where their image stands overall, instead of just one of 10 entries that got no votes. I hope that all makes sense, 'cause I'm tired and I'm not sure even I understand what I'm on about!
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  17. #17
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    @Waz... Exactly! The point of a point voting system is ALL entries get some sort of feedback.
    The 'cost' being needing to click once per image up for voting - not that bad considering

  18. #18
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    In theory, it's a good idea, but in practice (based on what you have presented at least) I think it could potentially turn into a nightmare.

    You've suggested in the 10 points having a breakdown based on technical merit (3), subject, theme & composition (3) and impact (4). Unless you actually break the scoring down into the three categories, how are you actually going to enforce that? We know from plenty of experience that newcomers to the site don't always read the rules, so how do you ensure they consider the three elements separately? If you do give the three categories to score on, it then becomes three times more time consuming - in addition to the extra time anyway of having to consider every photo instead of rating just the top "n". I'm inclined to agree with those who said it would discourage some people from voting.

    Additionally, if you don't break down the score into the three categories, you risk rating one photo with minimal impact (but good technically and compositionally, maybe) against one with very high impact which is maybe not perfect in the technical and compositional categories. I would have to say that based on previous competition results - and based on the current system - the one with high impact (low tech/comp) will win out every time over the technically correct, perfectly composed photos that leave many people less than inspired (ie. low impact).

    However, this idea may have some merit if applied in a slightly different way. Firstly, there's the option of having a judge or judging panel rate the comp entries in the first round based on this system. This is, after all, pretty much what any photo competition does. The second round then becomes a normal vote of the top "n" based on the judged results. Secondly, you could apply this to the second round only - ie. have a normal first round to pick the top "n", then apply the critical factors in the second round.

    Both of these options has their faults. Finding an independent (and objective) judge or judging panel is a pain (been there, done that!). With the second option, some photos that should have made the top (critically speaking) won't by popular vote, and some photos that shouldn't have made the top (critically speaking) will by popular vote. So, it's pretty much damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    How about a bit of a hybrid? Maybe a two-stage first round where people first vote for the top "n" as they currently do, and they then apply these criteria to the photos they've selected? It might not be practical to apply the ratings for the second round of voting - but think about it ...... the only photos that won't have any ratings applied in the three categories will be those that received no votes at all. There usually aren't many of those. You can then at least report the average ratings when the results are revealed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoDo View Post
    Does that mean still keeping the limit on the number of entries in the final voting closer to the first table than the second? After all, I can't see voting for 18 top entries in qualifying and then having to choose only 1 of 18 in the final vote.
    Yeah. Keep the final poll down to 4-8 entries or so, but allow members to choose more in the initial round.

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    Was also happening with old server - think it is our end problem not AP.

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