All is not what it seems

[ricktas]

Colin, nothing posted in this thread breaches site rules or laws of Australia, therefore it is allowed on this site. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with your opinion. The site is here for all members and I will allow any discussion as long as it doesn't breach the AP rules or the Law.

We have not named this person, nor have they been identified in any way by any of the posts here. Those who know who they are, are members of this site and another photography site where he has been confronted about this issue directly.

The people at AIPP, Trade Practices and other Government departments can only do their job once they are made aware of the issues involved. This thread is a good business discussion about how NOT to run a business and serves as a great reminder of that. If it means just one person reads this thread and changes their mind about 'borrowing" the AIPP logo stating they are a member, then it has served a worthwhile purpose.

[Kym]

Disclaimer - the following is NOT legal advice.

I am not sure about the ABN issue. Without seeing the site in question, I am not willing to posit an opinion as to its use of an ABN - but there are circumstances where it might be OK - if you have a registered business name robertsphotos and a company flibble p/l, I believe you can be "flibble p/l trading as robertsphotos", using flibble's ABN and robertsphotos name. (Most Mcdonalds and Harvey Normans trade this way.)

Basically correct as far as I understand it.
I think that also needs to be registered (it does here in SA with the OCBA).
But using someone else's ABN is never valid, even if it is the GF.

[colinbm]

Colin, nothing posted in this thread breaches site rules or laws of Australia, therefore it is allowed on this site. I never said I had any problem with this being here.
Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with your opinion. I never said I had any problem with this being here.
The site is here for all members and I will allow any discussion as long as it doesn't breach the AP rules or the Law. I never said I had any problem with this being here.
We have not named this person, nor have they been identified in any way by any of the posts here. That's fine.
Those who know who they are, are members of this site and another photography site where he has been confronted about this issue directly. Yes & that's their business.
The people at AIPP, Trade Practices and other Government departments can only do their job once they are made aware of the issues involved. Yes & that's their business. I am sure once they receive complaints from irate customers, the balls will roll.
This thread is a good business discussion about how NOT to run a business and serves as a great reminder of that. If it means just one person reads this thread and changes their mind about 'borrowing" the AIPP logo stating they are a member, then it has served a worthwhile purpose.I can't imagine there are too many dills or fraudsters here stupid enough to try, but really what is it to anyone (except to victims) if they do

These are only my thoughts. No one here is a victim of this guy, I hope. So why carve him up into little pieces, before he has been found guilty of harming anyone, except himself. Yes, report for reports sake, only.
Col

[ricktas]

These are only my thoughts. No one here is a victim of this guy, I hope. So why carve him up into little pieces, before he has been found guilty of harming anyone, except himself. Yes, report for reports sake, only.
Col

So do we need your approval for any posts/threads on this site that you disagree with?

[Bear Dale]

These are only my thoughts. No one here is a victim of this guy, I hope. So why carve him up into little pieces, before he has been found guilty of harming anyone, except himself. Yes, report for reports sake, only.
Col

This is exactly the correct place to talk about a photographer doing something so underhanded and who has been caught out.

[colinbm]

So do we need your approval for any posts/threads on this site that you disagree with?

You may need to tie up that anvil a bit more securely & install a missile switch cover over its hair-trigger & a good pad-lock & bury the key in a dark place

I never said I didn't like the thread, & I have no say in what is placed here. I have only commented on just the lack of democracy & the lack of justice (innocent before proven guilty) that is being metered out to this person, by people that haven't been harmed by that person, here.
I keep saying, yes report, but why pre-judge the person ? Do you all want to be the police, judge, jury & jailer too.
Are you going to beat & stone this person before they go before a judge. Are you all that righteous, I don't think so

[colinbm]

To whom it may Concern.

http://www.aipp.com.au/imis15/AIPP/A...of_ethics.aspx

Code of Ethics
AUSTRALIAN INSTITUTE OF PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHY LTD A.C.N. 050 167 498 A.B.N. 77 050 167 498
AIPP NATIONAL OFFICE: PO BOX 372, NORTH MELBOURNE, VICTORIA 3051 TEL: 1800 686 696 FAX: (03) 9329 9933
General Matters
14. I will not commit any acts that will discredit the profession and I will refrain from degrading competitors.
21. I will not divulge any confidential information acquired by me during the course of my professional duties to any party.
22. I understand that if I wilfully or knowingly condone, or am party to any act perpetrated by others, which contravenes this code, then I shall be as equally responsible as if I had committed such a breach on my own account.

[ricktas]

But Ausphotography is not a member of the AIPP, and therefore not bound by its Code of Ethics.

[colinbm]

But Ausphotography is not a member of the AIPP, and therefore not bound by its Code of Ethics.

"To whom it may Concern".
So it is of no cocern to AustPhotography, then.
Col

[ricktas]

I am really unsure what you are trying to argue here Colin. The thread brought forward the issue of purporting to be something you are not, as a business practice, along with raising issues related to ABN usage and more. It raised the issue of honestly and integrity in business, which is something every photographer in business or considering going into business should appreciate.

I don't understand where your argument is heading, and therefore will bow out of discussing it with you any further. You have made your point clear that you do not think this site should allow this sort of discussion. Others (including myself) disagree with you, as we are entitled to. I have better things to do than get into a tit-for-tat with you on this.

[colinbm]

Thank you, BUT, I never said or implied this -
"".......... you do not think this site should allow this sort of discussion.""
Col

[Wayne]

Too much walking on eggshells here. There are ways this person or person's business can be named without and repercussion legally to AP or anyone associated with it.

I ask those who feel that not to be the case to point to the relevant legislation that would be infringed??

[Longshots]

I'm quite amazed that anyone can argue to protect someone misrepresenting themselves in any manner. But as this is a discussion forum, I'm happy to read all points of view.

Irony indeed to see a very partial and highly selective/edited quote of the AIPP code of ethics. Ironic as the discussions relating to one example of the original topic title "All it not what is seems", is all about seeing the big picture and the true and honest picture.

So, hoping that Rick will allow me to quote this in full, but I think its important to demonstrate that if an individual wants to join AIPP, they have to agree to the Entire AIPP code of ethics. Please note a couple of things, that a) if you're not a member you're not agreeing to this code, and b) its not up to some individual, member or non member, to determine if a member has contravened the code, but up to a formal process which is fair and confidential within the AIPP management structure.

And before I quote the entire thing in, misrepresentation, false claims, clearly stating trade practices that contravene areas that would appeal to the interests of Fair Trading, the ATO, and many others, rely on reports from the public - which is you, me, and the rest of Australian people. If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to be concerned about. And if you do think that something appears incorrect, wrong, etc, then make a report/complaint etc, as it will be investigated, and if there is nothing wrong, then no action is taken. I dont see share the concern that AP should do anything other than what its doing, which is discussing the original topic title. And I congratulate those who disagree with the far too common practice of misrepresentation and downright deceit in the photographic market. Sure its nothing new, people have been doing similar things for decades, but this is a discussion forum. And while it complies with its own set of guidelines and legal requirements, which include avoiding defamation or slander claims, then I heartily support open discussion about topics that interest me; of which this is one,

Anyway for those interested, here are the entire AIPP Code of Ethics, which as I've said apply to members, and its worth pointing out again that they should be read and understood as an entirety and not quoted out of context to suit any particular debate :

AIPP Code of Ethics
The AIPP Code of Ethics is one of the key differentiators between members of the institute and non members.
All membership categories of the AIPP are bound by the code of ethics.
General Matters

1. I agree to be bound by the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the Australian Institute of Professional Photography (AIPP) and abide by the regulations and guidelines of the AIPP as set down from time to time.

2. I will abide by this Code of Ethics of the AIPP and recognise the authority of the AIPP Compliance Committee in all matters relating to the interpretation and enforcement of this code.

3. I shall at all times present myself; my photography and photographic services, in such manner as will uphold and dignify my professional status and the reputation of the Institute.

4. I will deal with all users of photography and the public with honesty and integrity. I shall exercise reasonable skill, care and diligence in the discharge of my duties, giving full consideration to the requirements of the client.

5. I will not use any marketing or competitive practice, which violates any Federal or State statute or any decision of a Federal or State court.

6. I shall ensure that advertisements and other public announcements with which my name is associated are not such as would, in the opinion of the Board, bring the Institute into disrepute. I shall ensure that all advertisements or public announcements mentioned comply with the guidelines issued from time to time by the Board.

7. I shall ensure that in conjunction with my name only such designatory letters or other descriptions to which I am entitled are used. (Only businesses in which all employees are members of the AIPP may use “Members of the AIPP” after the business name.

Market Related Matters

8. I shall, if engaged in the fields of wedding and/or portrait photography, allow the client three working days, after the placement of an order or the signing of a contract, during which time the client may change without penalty the extent of such order or contract.

9. I will not utilise any form of "high pressure‟ selling tactics to book clients or influence clients to place orders.

10. I will reveal all material facts; avoid concealment of information and refrain from the use of innuendoes in advertising and selling that might cause consumers to be misled, so that the truth about services of products may be fully understood. I will provide a complete and comprehensive written price list outlining my services and products prior to undertaking any photographic assignment.

11. I will fulfil all contractual obligations, offer reasonable warranty of products and services, and perform on such warranty without hesitation, where claims are justified. I will ensure that all wedding photography transactions, including the production of albums, does not take more than three months from the date of order, or a firm delivery date be agreed in writing at the contract stage.

12. I will advertise and sell the merits of my services and products honestly and undertake only assignments that my firm or I can reasonably expect to complete with professional competence.

13. I will refer the client to another suitably qualified and ethical photographer who can best fulfil the client’s needs if my organisation or I cannot undertake the work.

14. I will not commit any acts that will discredit the profession and I will refrain from degrading competitors.

15. I will not concurrently engage in any business or occupation, which impairs my rendering of professional image making services.

16. I shall not offer or accept a photograph for reproduction or accept a reproduction fee in respect of any photograph for which I do not own the copyright, without the express permission of the owner of the copyright.

17. I will refund all monies in cases of genuine client hardship and within the period of six months before the date of a booking. A small fee may be retained to cover administrative expenses.

18. I will ensure that any matter referring to copyright is underlined on contracts (or printed in bold type in any new contracts), and that reasonable usage rights for the studio be contractually established at the time of the original contract, and that these rights extend to an agreed level of promotion for the studio, including entry into professional competitions and exhibitions.

19. I acknowledge that every client entering into a contract with an AIPP member is entitled to receive a copy of the Code of Ethics.

Member Related Matters

20. In whatever capacity I am engaged I shall act in a just and faithful manner towards clients, employers, and employees; towards others with which my work is connected, and towards other members of the AIPP.

21. I will not divulge any confidential information acquired by me during the course of my professional duties to any party.

22. I understand that if I wilfully or knowingly condone, or am party to any act perpetrated by others, which contravenes this code, then I shall be as equally responsible as if I had committed such a breach on my own account.

23. I will be responsible for the conduct and performance of any person employed or sub-contracted by me.

Educational Matters

24. I will actively support and where possible assist in the education of all interested persons and the general public in the art and science of professional photography.

25. I will strive at all times to upgrade and improve my knowledge and skills in the profession of photography and related areas.

And finally here's the link:
http://www.aipp.com.au/imis15/AIPP/A...b-b537092e9b2a

[Bear Dale]

I'm quite amazed that anyone can argue to protect someone misrepresenting themselves in any manner.

I agree, it is utterly amazing.

[ricktas]

This person was not a member of the AIPP, and as William's post with the code of ethics shows, even though they had an image (AIPP Logo with wording that implied they were a member) on their site, by this very action alone, they were breaching the code of ethics that they were purporting to be agreeable to IF they had been a member.

This means they could pretend to clients that they had some sort of affiliation/membership with the AIPP, and would abide by the AIPP code of ethics, when in reality they had zero obligation to do so. This could easily be argued as deceptive trade practice.

[Kym]

Too much walking on eggshells here. There are ways this person or person's business can be named without and repercussion legally to AP or anyone associated with it.

I ask those who feel that not to be the case to point to the relevant legislation that would be infringed??

Except that the point of the thread is business ethics, not this specific case.
The case was used as an example, but is not the main point of the discussion.

The person concerned has already threatened legal action, which is easy to avoid by not naming (who wants to waste the time/cost to prove your are right?).

[johndom]

For my 2 cents, I think this conversation is both perfectly reasonable and being handled in a proffessional manner.

[ving]

considering that anyone can join the AAIP i dont really know if I'd automatically consider a member to be professional or er... good.
the average punter (being a person looking for a pro tog) wouldnt know the difference between member and affiliate anyhow.

as for this dweeb using thier logo, well i hope they coped an earful!


... but the question that begs to be asked and therefore answered is just what is a professional tog?

[Wayne]

Except that the point of the thread is business ethics, not this specific case.
The case was used as an example, but is not the main point of the discussion.

The person concerned has already threatened legal action, which is easy to avoid by not naming (who wants to waste the time/cost to prove your are right?).

One could be forgiven for thinking otherwise, when having a read of the thread, it is evident that the case is so frequently referenced by many.

[kiwi]

what's a professional tog ?

what's a professional artist ?

what's professional ?

what's a photographer ?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind...