Banning live stock export-

[I @ M]

We should stop all trade until these places are brought up to scratch - they prove they have gold standards before a single beast is sent..

I certainly don't condone poor treatment of animals which is what the original post is about but I rather think that if we were to apply your ideals to overseas trade and suggest that we shouldn't supply any exports ( animal, vegetable or mineral ) to places that don't have "gold standards" then there would be an awful lot of businesses going to the wall Scotty.

[Sezzy]

Whilst I acknowledge your sincere, sensible post, I do take issue with one aspect. If we acknowledge a hideous wrong (I think we can agree what was shown on 4 Corners was wrong), we can not excuse, justify or ignore it by claiming it will financially disadvantage us.

Sorry, but, if some traders, farmers, truckers etc miss out: bad luck. This is a WRONG. In the same way we don't consider the losses of publicans when they are banned from selling alcohol to alcohol abusers: we should not consider those who will miss out when we ban selling animals to animal abusers. Just where would we draw the line: should we consider that casinos will miss out if problem gamblers are excluded (a major source of their revenue). These are all legal products that we all agree must have controls over whom they are sold to.

We should stop all trade until these places are brought up to scratch - they prove they have gold standards before a single beast is sent..

I'm not condoning what they're doing by any means - but unless you live on a farm and understand how much of a person's livelihood goes into actually breeding cattle for human consumption, it's a little naive to suggest blanket bans (no disrespect intended). As far as I'm aware none of these farmers are selling direct to the abbatoirs in Indonesia...it's done on their behalf, and from what I could gather from the report, some of these farmers were even unaware of it happening as it is.

We can sit in our houses in the city and say, 'no - there should be a blanket ban on all abbatoirs', but are you going to pay their bills in the mean time?

I'm an animal lover and to see this happening to 'our' animals, really gets my goat - but I can't agree with a blanket ban that will no doubt cause people to suffer as a result of someone else's callous actions.

There has been some light at the end of the tunnel though, now it just needs to get approved...

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/b...-1226070328971

[macmich]

scotty
do you live in the country or the city
do a search or take a trip to the bush and ask about the suicide rate of farmers
and your suggesting to take more trade away
you might as well send all the cockies anoose
because there will be more suicides if you take there lively hood of them

[Chilli]

Not many humans are Atheist when it comes to $.
The farming industy will have to be compensated by the regulators who did NOT do their job !!!!!!

[Scotty72]

So,

Should I feel more sorry for the casino worker who loses her job because the casino loses business or the family of the guy who loses the family house to a gambling addiction.

Does keeping her job justify the sufferring of an innocent family?

Maybe I should weep at the financial losses of the Victorian tobacco growers who go to the wall when society tries to reduce smoking rates: Or do we actively encourage smoking so they can keep their farms (a tobacco industry rescue / stimulus package) so I can then weep for the hundreds of thousands of extra cancer victims it will cause.

Who would you chose to suffer? Most just follow the $$$ signs.

I am sorry. But, my conscious cannot be wiped by these $ signs.

Being part of the supply chain that closes its eyes to horrible animal abuse is, IMHO, unconscionable.

If we justify this outrage by citing the almighty dollar, why not start up a kiddie p0rn export business - we could bring in millions?

Scotty

[macmich]

scotty
just as a matter off interest what sort of work are you in
cheers macca

[Tannin]

So, Macca, are we to conclude from your posts that you think it is OK to make your living by torturing animals?

There is no middle ground: either you believe that it is OK to sell your animals for torture, or you don't.

To say that people will struggle to male a quid so we can't have a ban - this is to admit that these same people have been making a living from the torture of their animals, and admit that you are in favour of having it continue. Lay it on the line: are you prepared to tolerate the torture of our animals, or not? Either the animals go over there to be tortured, or they don't. There is no middle ground, no way to avoid the question.

Yes, or no. Tell us your answer.

[Scotty72]

scotty
just as a matter off interest what sort of work are you in
cheers macca

A high school teacher.

So, before you try to turn that against me; play the man, not the ball: let me do it for you.

Yes, there are problems in education but, I assure you, I regularly make myself a pain in my boss's ar$e complaining about the wrongs in my profession too.

- Such as the horrible NAPLAN-isation of the primary focus of my school and the sacrificing of ethical principles on that altar - (thanks Julia)
- The blatant unfairness of unequal access and unequal opportunity to disabled kids (and teachers for that matter)
- The exemption the DET has for fire standards. My whinging embarrassed my school into spending many thousands of dollars fixing it (letters to the editor and local MP helped that).
- The wasting of thousands of $$$ of gratuitous self-promotion (we are a public school for crying out loud - but, I lost that battle and now my school is more gloss / less substance).

There are others but, I wont bore you.

Needless to say, my boss would happily get rid of me if she could

Can every person change the world? Probably not but, if you see something that is just plain wrong (such as the needless torture of animals) - you should have the courage to speak up.

Unless of course, $ is the new moral imperative.

Scotty

[macmich]

tony
i am all for the exports
i am not happy with the cruelty but that issue is being addressed
there would hardly be a proffession in the world that is not doing something wrong
the farmer is not torturing the animals
the farmer supplies the animals
the biggest exporter is setting up with his own money the stun guns and training and oversears for these places and all others will be banned until they conform
i used to go down to the docks at portland when this live exports started with the sheep in portland in the mid to late 70s
the times have changed so much over the years and will continue to change
do you own furniture or use writing paper
do you live in a house
because all these things are torturing animals to some extent
the forests are being destryed all over the world and the animals are slowly going extinct
but in this day and age they are showing the less fortunate countries how to revegitate and regrow the forests
the same as the way the slaughter of animals is being taught
there is no way that the export of live animals will stop but it will improve
as for the tobacco industry i would not care one way or the other if the shut it down
it peoples own choice to smoke and if they want the problems associated with it let them go
you take the industry out of australia it will only be smuggled from somewhere else or harder stuff will replace it
at least steps are being taking to stop passive smoking
i dont have to avoid the question of animal cruelty and i do favour live exports but like i said times are changing and the wheels are in motion for the problem to be fixed
cheers macca

[Avalon]

I wish I hadn't started reading this thread.
Some of the insensitive comments make me feel sick to my stomach.
I stopped eating meat 35 years ago because of the disgusting and inhumane way we treat the living feeling animals that are abused for the sake of money.
This is not about culture, it is about cruelty, ignorance and the almighty dollar.

[Scotty72]

Thankfully.

Common sense, decency and humanity infects our federal govt/

Live exports to Indonesia suspended indefinitely

Scotty

[Tannin]

Scotty - next we get the whingers complaining and begging for "compensation".
Excuse me!

• Do we compensate tobacco retailers because we stopped them selling drugs to children?
• Do we compensate accounting conmen because we closed the loopholes and stopped them stealing money from grannies by (technically legal) fraud and deception?
• Why should we "compensate" people when we stop them making money by selling cows to be tortured in Indonesia?

Where is the logical difference? Ans: there isn't any.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Macmich - thankyou for your honest reply, and thankyou for having the courage to admit that you are in favour of animal torture because it makes money. Thats OK. I don't agree, but you have the right to your opinion, and I fully defend your right to believe what you feel is right and to defend that belief in public.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone - this is a victory for common sense, and for people power.

Over the next few months, we can look forward to a real effort by the cattle industry to bring humanity and decency to the Indonesian meat trade. (As opposed to the shonky pretend effort it has put in up to now.) I have every confidence that the industry, now that it is really trying, will be successful in eliminating most of the wanton brutality, and covering up the rest so that it never makes it onto TV screens again.

[fabian628]

tony
i am all for the exports
i am not happy with the cruelty but that issue is being addressed
there would hardly be a proffession in the world that is not doing something wrong
the farmer is not torturing the animals
the farmer supplies the animals
the biggest exporter is setting up with his own money the stun guns and training and oversears for these places and all others will be banned until they conform
i used to go down to the docks at portland when this live exports started with the sheep in portland in the mid to late 70s
the times have changed so much over the years and will continue to change
do you own furniture or use writing paper
do you live in a house
because all these things are torturing animals to some extentthe forests are being destryed all over the world and the animals are slowly going extinct
but in this day and age they are showing the less fortunate countries how to revegitate and regrow the forests
the same as the way the slaughter of animals is being taught
there is no way that the export of live animals will stop but it will improve
as for the tobacco industry i would not care one way or the other if the shut it down
it peoples own choice to smoke and if they want the problems associated with it let them go
you take the industry out of australia it will only be smuggled from somewhere else or harder stuff will replace it
at least steps are being taking to stop passive smoking
i dont have to avoid the question of animal cruelty and i do favour live exports but like i said times are changing and the wheels are in motion for the problem to be fixed
cheers macca

this is a good point.
What about child labour, slavery used to produce clothing / collect raw materials in Africa china etc. ? By buying these products you are essentially endorsing this behaviour. It is all good to ban the export of the live animals, however it is somewhat hypocritical to support industry that does violate human rights also.
I do not have any answers, it is so difficult to change anything, so much money / power at stake to do the right thing. However, it is an over reaction to sign a petition after watching a documentary on the television without properly educating yourself on the matter.

[ricstew]

Hmmmmm I have read through most of this and am very surprised at the amount of energy spent. Wouldn't is be easier/cheaper to spend the monies we regularly send to Indonesia/Malaysia/pick a bloody country! to set up proper abbies........give guidance in the humanities....and set up refrigeration?
Do we get so emotive over human abuse of humans?

[Scotty72]

Hmmmmm I have read through most of this and am very surprised at the amount of energy spent. Wouldn't is be easier/cheaper to spend the monies we regularly send to Indonesia/Malaysia/pick a bloody country! to set up proper abbies........give guidance in the humanities....and set up refrigeration?
Do we get so emotive over human abuse of humans?

I agree:

For a start, I wish Australians would get as worked up over our disgusting treatment of asylum seekers - (sending children off for a beating in Malaysia).

[terry.langham]

Scotty - next we get the whingers complaining and begging for "compensation".
Excuse me!

• Do we compensate tobacco retailers because we stopped them selling drugs to children?
• Do we compensate accounting conmen because we closed the loopholes and stopped them stealing money from grannies by (technically legal) fraud and deception?
• Why should we "compensate" people when we stop them making money by selling cows to be tortured in Indonesia?

Where is the logical difference? Ans: there isn't any.

I would have thought it would be fair to compensate the farmers that have invested time and money in cattle that hasn't yet been sold and will now be of little value. I believe most wouldn't know where there cows go after getting to the sale yards.

However the exporters and government agencies that knew what was going on and didn't act appropriately to stop it are a different story.

[kiwi]

We should also consider not reimporting beef noodles from indonesia too

[farmer_rob]

1st, before anyone gets on my case, I wish to point out that I do not agree with the cruelty shown in Indonesia to the animals killed there, and we as a nation should be taking steps to ensure that cattle are treated humanely in the slaughter process (and no, I do not see that as a contradiction.)

Stopping the trade has serious impacts for the cattle industries:

For the northern australian farmer, it is likely to be economically very damaging, and the potential for damage to the wider industry is high through knock-on effects.

The indonesian trade is suggested to be a $350m trade. This translates to about 350,000 head of cattle per year, or about 140,000,000 kg of beef: 7kg per Australian. All cattle are sold from farms - either on contract or through the sale yard - as part of normal operations. The cattle can't be kept forever, and there is a prime age for selling them - so they have to be sold and slaughtered (otherwise they will starve and die, or left to roam and become feral).

If the cattle don't go to indonesia, they go onto the market somewhere else, depressing prices and depressing all farming incomes. At the same time, the meat is not "premium" meat. (The Brahmin and other tropical breeds are tougher and leaner than european and british breeds) It can't be sold into other markets such as Japan. It won't appear in a supermarket near you, but it may appear in a macdonalds (mincing solves a stack of tenderness issues).

I think the MLA and Livecorp have let down the cattle industry appallingly. At the same time, the government is just pushing us further into the shit. Next the animal activists will be trying to stop all live exports, including to those countries that DO treat cattle humanely. That will directly hit me.

(Oh, and for anyone who considers I treat my cattle in a "disgusting and inhumane way", they are welcome to come and visit and I will attempt to prove them wrong. Well treated and well-looked-after animals is better business.)

[Tannin]

I would have thought it would be fair to compensate the farmers that have invested time and money in cattle that hasn't yet been sold and will now be of little value. I believe most wouldn't know where there cows go after getting to the sale yards.

It is their duty to know these things. They are obligated to take reasonable steps to ensure that their cattle are treated humanely. Pretending that you don't know is the oldest excuse in the book - the same excuse trotted out by the asbestos miners, the same excuse trotted out by the tobacco companies.

Why should I pay money to "compensate" someone else for not making money by torturing animals? That doesn't make sense. No-one is asking them to pay back the money they made from all the torture in the past, just to stop making more of it until their animals are treated properly.

[ricstew]

Is it the duty of the pig farmer to check how the sausages are made? Or how much packaging the apples are in? or that the wheat is milled to a ??% suitable for eating?