Voluntary photography work

[kiwi]

Yes, I agree. I think its ironic too

[Wayne]

Wayne, I don't disagree with you and in many ways you have reinforced my point that things are changing! I just think that doing too much for free sells yourself short. We all individually need to draw a line somewhere and that is the hard bit, where? Do free work every week and it becomes just that, work! If you're comfortable doing that fine, but I'm not. Each to their own I guess.

I should point out that when considering the work I take on, I do far more paid than freebie work (my personal photography aside of course) but just wanted to point out that when considering doing freebies, I don't care what view anyone else takes of that.

[kiwi]

I should point out that when considering the work I take on, I do far more paid than freebie work (my personal photography aside of course) but just wanted to point out that when considering doing freebies, I don't care what view anyone else takes of that.

OK, to twist this a little, what do you think of photographers who do for free what you used to get paid to do ?

[James T]

... I think William summed it up succinctly above where he said that so many of those who gave away their services in order to get a foot in the door in the first place are the ones most likely to complain about others doing it in the future. I'm sure there is something in there about having your cake and eating it as well.

I don't think that's the case at all. I've never seen any stats to suggest that it is or isn't.. but in my experience the opposite is true.

OK, to twist this a little, what do you think of photographers who do for free what you used to get paid to do ?

Plenty of photographers do for free, what I get paid to do. Doesn't bother me at all, why would it? I get paid, they don't - that's up to them.

[kiwi]

James, Im assuming you have plenty of paid work and dont lose out jobs to those that WFF ? If so, I envy you and well done.

[Wayne]

OK, to twist this a little, what do you think of photographers who do for free what you used to get paid to do ?

You know it isn't my main income mate, so really all it means to me is that I don't have to do a job for a few $$ pocket money. I am not aware of having lost a job to a freebie operator, but it may have happened and I was just never told about it. I have no issue with people wanting to do it for whatever reward suits them be it cheap or free...

Before anyone against free photography asks, if the same free approach were applied to what is my main income (mining) how would I feel then?

Good luck to anyone who wants to be a miner for free. If it came down to me having difficulty getting paid mining work, or having to work in mining for peanuts, I would change industry. I'm not afraid of change....

[JM Tran]

I'm not afraid of change....

Best line in the thread for me

Dont know why some ppl are kicking up a fuss in this thread. Things will always continue to develop and evolve in life, the work place and photography. If you try and fight those changes, you are only swimming against the tide. I couldnt care less if some ppl are doing photography gigs for free, I have never lost work from it. Work that is worth my time and effort anyway.

Besides, I work with NGOs and other independent aid groups that are non-profitable, and I do give them my photos for free and others too.

[kiwi]

Not meaning to cause a fuss, I'm just interested in when people (hobbyists and pros alike) think about doing free stuff

It seems nobody really cares one way or the other which is fine and sort of surprising

[ksolomon]

IMO any charity organisation I would do for free, immediate family and a favour to immediate family I would also do for free, anything else I would like to get paid (that may not always end up the case).

Now on saying that as I am only starting out in this business and have at this point the need to keep my full time job to support not only my photography adiction but also my family I did ask my mentor (a professional photographer of many many years and well respected) what would be a fair asking price for my services based on experience etc when quoting for any work. The advice I was given was start out at $20 to $25 per hour plus printing, this is what she feels would be fair. So that is where I am currently at.

I personally don't care if someone is charging more or less than me we all start somewhere and if your goal is to build into this business you do in these times I believe do things at a reduced or free rate to gain the exposure and experience to build your portfolio so to speak. This might have taken this off topic a little but its just my opinion.

[JM Tran]

The advice I was given was start out at $20 to $25 per hour plus printing, this is what she feels would be fair. So that is where I am currently at.

I'd have to disagree with her on her pricing advice there.

So theoretically if I hire you for say, 4 hours for an event shoot somewhere in Brisbane. You drive there and back from the Gold Coast say, 2 hours there and back, plus a few more hours of processing and editing, and you may need to mail the photos to me after.

4 hours photography: $100
2 hours of driving time and petrol: minus $15
3 hours processing and editing: minus your own time
postage to client: minus $5

so you are ending with around $80 dollars net profit and about 8-9 hours of your time gone. So you would have been making $10 per hour net.

Im afraid to say that this example above would be another argument into the devaluation of the photographic industry, based on unsound advice - no offence to your mentor by any means - but by wrong approaches. How does one plan or expect to raise their prices to a profitable level soon or in the near future, if they are perceived as being a budget photographer right from the start?

Photography is not about how long you have been doing it for, its about how good you are at it. I have been doing this full time for nearly 3 years, and I have never charged anything based on an hourly rate.

[ksolomon]

I'd have to disagree with her on her pricing advice there.

So theoretically if I hire you for say, 4 hours for an event shoot somewhere in Brisbane. You drive there and back from the Gold Coast say, 2 hours there and back, plus a few more hours of processing and editing, and you may need to mail the photos to me after.

4 hours photography: $100
2 hours of driving time and petrol: minus $15
3 hours processing and editing: minus your own time
postage to client: minus $5

so you are ending with around $80 dollars net profit and about 8-9 hours of your time gone. So you would have been making $10 per hour net.

Im afraid to say that this example above would be another argument into the devaluation of the photographic industry, based on unsound advice - no offence to your mentor by any means - but by wrong approaches. How does one plan or expect to raise their prices to a profitable level soon or in the near future, if they are perceived as being a budget photographer right from the start?

Photography is not about how long you have been doing it for, its about how good you are at it. I have been doing this full time for nearly 3 years, and I have never charged anything based on an hourly rate.

Don't get me wrong here as I appreciate your opinion, advice and thought process, In my mind if I was doing a job like your example I would add in the charge of time from when I left home ie the 2 hours driving but not the petrol and would add in time for processing, I also charge all outgoings at cost ie printing, postage.

This advice was based on quoting for my first job doing the photography for a hair competition I spent 2 hours on photography (from leaving to arriving back home) then 1 hour processing plus printing. Charged the client based on the 3 hours plus outgoings and they were happy and understood my capabilities. I agree that it would depend on the type of job etc whether you would charge on hourly rate or otherwise.

In my mind I was trying to be fair to myself and to more experienced photographers in setting a realistic price based on my limited experience, time in the industry and knowledge compared to say someone who has been working for many years and can rightly charge from a few hundred to a few thousand depending on the job

[Wayne]

I'd have to disagree with her on her pricing advice there.

So theoretically if I hire you for say, 4 hours for an event shoot somewhere in Brisbane. You drive there and back from the Gold Coast say, 2 hours there and back, plus a few more hours of processing and editing, and you may need to mail the photos to me after.

4 hours photography: $100
2 hours of driving time and petrol: minus $15
3 hours processing and editing: minus your own time
postage to client: minus $5

so you are ending with around $80 dollars net profit and about 8-9 hours of your time gone. So you would have been making $10 per hour net.

I want to drive what Jackie drives!!
If you can drive from GC to BNE and back for $15 at todays petrol prices lol
Even a small motorcycle would be doing it tough. This just reinforces the extra loss you would take with a job costed at the rates above when you don't charge for fuel...

[JM Tran]

I want to drive what Jackie drives!!
If you can drive from GC to BNE and back for $15 at todays petrol prices lol
Even a small motorcycle would be doing it tough. This just reinforces the extra loss you would take with a job costed at the rates above when you don't charge for fuel...

hahaha its been nearly 3 years since Ive driven from Brissy to the GC, so kinda forgot how long it would take

[kiwi]

45 minutes at 4 in the morning, 4 1/2 hours at 4 in the afternoon

[camerasnoop]

Let me first say that photography is my ONLY source of income, so I have an interest in making sure that I not only cover my costs, but also make "living expenses" as someone so eloquently put it above. I have done work for free, and I have done work for a bloody loss

I don't mind people working for nothing as long as they aren't doing it to get a job off me. Mercenary? Absolutely. Throwing your money away doing freebies for people who would normally be able to pay (exclude charity work here guys and gals) is also fine with me as long as I'm not expected to do the same.

Last year I was sent an email from a well-funded local organisation offering me "the opportunity" to shoot their big corporate event at the best hotel in town. They went on to detail their requirements which included giving them all the images on disc immediately after the event wound down at midnight. The event was a five hour affair and coverage was of the awards being handed out and some portraiture work as well as shots against backdrops etc. Here's the sting in the tail though. They were offering me $150 to do the job and they would give me two tickets (only for myself and my spouse) at the event, and allow me to put my business cards on the tables.

I advised them that I would have to decline their generous offer.

When that stuff starts happening, I know that that someone has sussed that some photographers are happy to work for nothing. Sorry, but I'm not one of them. Buying and maintaining gear costs a lot of money and the tooth fairy doesn't pay that well.

[camerasnoop]

Let me also twist the question a little as kiwi has done.

Say I put you on as a second shooter on one of my jobs...you know...to give you experience and exposure to the business. Say I couldn't afford to pay you and so traded off the experience you got against the wages you'd forgo. Would you do that for long? Would you keep doing it if you found out I was charging you out at $100 per hour? Would you believe me at all if I drove a Mercedes Benz?

Doing the work for free, whether it is for me or for another business is the same isn't it? I'm not trying to change peoples' opinions, just maybe putting the question in a different light (little photography joke there).

[jasevk]

Don't get me wrong here as I appreciate your opinion, advice and thought process, In my mind if I was doing a job like your example I would add in the charge of time from when I left home ie the 2 hours driving but not the petrol and would add in time for processing, I also charge all outgoings at cost ie printing, postage.

This advice was based on quoting for my first job doing the photography for a hair competition I spent 2 hours on photography (from leaving to arriving back home) then 1 hour processing plus printing. Charged the client based on the 3 hours plus outgoings and they were happy and understood my capabilities. I agree that it would depend on the type of job etc whether you would charge on hourly rate or otherwise.

In my mind I was trying to be fair to myself and to more experienced photographers in setting a realistic price based on my limited experience, time in the industry and knowledge compared to say someone who has been working for many years and can rightly charge from a few hundred to a few thousand depending on the job

Sorry, gotta agree with JM.

Forget about what your friend told you, and forget about what other pros are charging... Do a thorough analysis of ALL of your costs in fine fine detail, add some profit on top and allowance for capital expenditure etc etc... And determine what you are worth. I'd be willing to bet that 25 per hour won't even cover your costs...

If showing respect to professionals about how you charge is important to you, you'll earn more respect by determining your own value in this way, than going in cheap just because someone said so!

[ksolomon]

Sorry, gotta agree with JM.

If showing respect to professionals about how you charge is important to you, you'll earn more respect by determining your own value in this way, than going in cheap just because someone said so!

Appreciate your point of view, I had not looked at this from that angle. Your point is food for thought and will research further. Thanks

[Longshots]

Sorry, gotta agree with JM.

Forget about what your friend told you, and forget about what other pros are charging... Do a thorough analysis of ALL of your costs in fine fine detail, add some profit on top and allowance for capital expenditure etc etc... And determine what you are worth. I'd be willing to bet that 25 per hour won't even cover your costs...

If showing respect to professionals about how you charge is important to you, you'll earn more respect by determining your own value in this way, than going in cheap just because someone said so!

Forgive me for copying all of this - its a case of hitting the nail on the head - well done Jason - utterly right.

[camerasnoop]

Come on kiwi. Have I outdone your Avatar yet?