New Release, Sigma SD1, 46mp, DSLR, June 2011.

[I @ M]

Tommo, the megapickle arguments will always rage with the particular sensor design ( Foveon ) that Sigma use.
Basically the way to look at this particular one is to look at the sensor dimensions ( 23.5x15.7mm ) which is pretty well in line with most APSC sensor sizes as a 3:2 ratio or 1.5 crop of 35mm frame format.
Then look at the total number of pixels ( horizontal x vertical ) in the sensor ( 4,800×3,200 ) and then multiply the two to get the number of megapickles that the sensor actually has.
This gives you a bit under 16 megapickles under the way that every most other manufacturers quote their cameras as. The difference with the Sigma sensor is that they claim each photosite on the sensor measures colour channels separately ( RGB ) so therefore you must multiply the total megapickle count x 3 giving somewhere around 46 megapickles.
The actual pixel density of that sensor is really no more than the current class leading Pentax / Nikon designed by Sony sensor in the K5 / D7000 but it it simply interprets things differently.

Yes, the sensor and design do work well, but do they work 3 times as well as the rest both price and performance wise?

Only time and the market place will provide that answer.

Sadly I think it will be a rather resounding no on the price issue alone.

Edit --- I really would be quite happy to be proven wrong on the acceptance of the Sigma in the market place, maybe it will be the silver bullet but going on the past models that have failed to set the world on fire I really can't see much more than a soggy match head with this one. Please prove me wrong Mr. Sigma.

[ameerat42]

Helloooooo SD15.

[colinbm]

Hi Tommo1965 & all interested listers
The Sigma Foveon digital sensor chip is different to the Bayer Array chips.
Sigma Foveon measures the light colour at different levels of penetration of the silicone chip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor
So the new SD1 actually has over 15mp on the surface of the chip, the chip is measuring the light depth at 3 levels.
This is how the 46mp are arrived at. Each pixel is measuring all the light that fall onto its surface.
The Bayer Array uses 4 pixels to measure the light signal, 2 for green, 1 for blue & 1 for red.
This where the arguments & confusion are generated from.
So on the surface of it, we have Foveon times 3 pixels & Bayer divided by 4 pixels.
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=67

Cheers
Col

[PJAD]

Depends on an individuals definition of pixel as well, a pixel is a picture element. Remember the Fuji S5; the 6mp sensor had two photosites per Bayer location but the camera was advertised as 12mp. The images were 12mp after interpolation of the 6mp data, but many thought the sensor was 12mp. The discussions of pixels and sensors should really be quite simple, whether it's Foveon or CFA, people get confused because they don't do the math themselves and don't quite understand what the sensor is doing.

SD1 @ US$9700, well, I'll just have to settle for a SD15 or DP2.

Regards,
Peter

[ameerat42]

That's a reasonable rule of thumb for trying to make a comparison, Col. (The 3/4 analogy, even though opto-electronics is rather more abstruse a pursuit.)
And Peter, much of the angst comes from a desire to understand by comparing with what's "familiar". (Though I don't know just how familiar Bayer pixology is.)

When I got the DP1 I thought, Oh, this quirky thing! (Understand I could say this because it was a gift.) Two shots of jpegs didn't shift me much, but then I loaded the raw converter and began processing raws. I was instantly happy with what I saw and that was good enough.

Actually, if Sigma did make a lightweight EVIL version using that sensor it would be nothing to sneeze @, as long as it didn't have such a whooping cough of a price.
Am.

[I @ M]

From a quick look on the net this arvo there seems to be some confusion as to whether the price that has been advertised is actually correct seeing as they now have kit prices including an 85mm F/1.4 lens at about $1800 LESS than the body price.

Sample images look pretty good, about the same as you would expect from a any current camera and quality glass in the upper ranges of price.

[colinbm]

Thanks Andrew,
I guess the MRSP is always high & allows a discount to street price. In this case the %'s amount to a lot of $$.

I have seen a comment that the camera cartel or mafia (who ever they could be ?) has put some pressure on Sigma, not to upset the status quo & on a promise to bring about a court action regarding reverse engineering of lens technology

I guess when you have a very good Image Quality now (SD15) & you make an improvement (above the rest), it could be valuable to someone

Cheers
Col

[I @ M]

I have seen a comment that the camera cartel or mafia (who ever they could be ?) has put some pressure on Sigma, not to upset the status quo & on a promise to bring about a court action regarding reverse engineering of lens technology

That sounds a little airy fairy, after all the entire mainstream camera industry is Japanese based and when all is said and done they, like so many other Japanese corporate behemoths, have only ever prospered first by copying / duplicating products and then when they owned the market place by refining them. Think cars, motor bikes and household appliances, first they borrowed or bought designs and copied them and over time started designing products that were superior to the original but still relied on the same principles. I don't think that Sigma, Tamron or Tokina as 3rd party lens manufacturers will really be sweating much, they will still keep reverse engineering products and working their way around what some might cynically say are baulking attempts by the OEM companies when they introduce firmware updates to their products.

I guess when you have a very good Image Quality now (SD15) & you make an improvement (above the rest), it could be valuable to someone

Nobody is doubting that they have a product that produces very good images but the key word is valuable and in reality I don't see anything in the images presented by them on the web ( surely they would pick and choose the absolute best ones that they could just as every other manufacturer does to showcase a new product ) that makes them stand out from anything else available today in a similar or cheaper price range.

Rather unfortunate and telling is their advertising blurb that states that their camera will produce noiseless images at 6400 ISO yet the sample images are all at ISO 100 apart from a couple at ISO 200.

[colinbm]

A lot of Sigma fans are up-in-arms about the price. Sigma have long told us, & as late as February this year that the SD1 will be priced similarly to the Canon 7D ?
Col

[ameerat42]

Fokes. I can't get to the samples link above. It just continually sits "loading". ???????

[colinbm]

Fokes. I can't get to the samples link above. It just continually sits "loading". ???????

Yep, I guess it's just overloaded
This is a very exciting release & the world has just beaten a path to their doorstep. You will just have to wait your turn.
Col

[ameerat42]

Just been looking @ some of the pics I downloaded. Pity the thing is so expensive. Even the 15 MPx sizes look OK.
Hmm! Enuff. Will hit the sack and 4-get about it.

[colinbm]

Glad you are impressed, I haven't looked yet, too long to load. I will wait for the rush to clear & see what some common users get, if a common user can afford one
How 'bout the lucky person in the US of A that wins one in the comp
Col

[ameerat42]

I found this somewhat interesting (if ultimately futile) dissertation referred to in a post on the DPR Sigma forum. Apart from a couple of spelling miskates it provided a bit of lobster bolster.
Am.

[JM Tran]

from dpreview.com

Part of conversation in the meeting where they set the price:
"Ok, come to order. We now have a date for release of the SD-1"
(Wild applause for 3 seconds)

Yamaki (CEO): "As you all know, I have said that the price will be in the 7D segment. However, the yield of the sensor production is so low, that we can't sell it at that price. We need to have at least 5000 USD for us for each unit."
(Silence)
"Anyone have a suggestion to save my face?"
(Even deeper silence)
Marketing: "We redefine it as a MF competitor!"
(Laughter, and more laughter.)

Someone: "Come on, how can we sell it as a MF competitor. Its a 1.5 crop, for crying out load. Have you ever looked in the viewfinder of a MF"
"No. I have never seen a MF."

Marketing: "I have another idea. Lets keep the price of the camera, so the COE does not loose face. But the SW we provide, the SPP, we have not made any promises about, right? We just set the suggested price of that to 8000 USD."
(Silence)
"You mean Camera + SW for 8000 USD?"
"No! Camera 2000 USD + SW 8000 USD. 10 grand. Thats a round and nice figure."
(Longer silence)

"People do not need Photoshop with our cameras, so why not move the cost over to our SW instead."

Yamaki: "Yes, lets do that. But keep that information a secret until I tell. Use the MF idea publically"
"What about the installed base. Will they not be very disappointed?"

"No, no, you do not understand their mentality. They are real fans. They will defend us with their lives. They will gladly sell their cars and homes to get this model - at any cost. Even if they not need it. "

"But we cannot offer a PRO-Service like the others. And they will have to send the unit here for repair."
"Thats not a big deal. You just have to make sure they buy 2 units each."
"But..."
"No more buts please"
And thats how the price was set. emoticon - smile



Another hit and miss by Sigma IMO

[ameerat42]

Yes, unfortunately true. I'm not even going to qualify it with "seems".
Am.

[colinbm]

JM Tran
This is just a fairy tale, a poor joke.

Very few insiders will know the true story about THE price.
THE price is probably not realisable, except for a few who appreciate the results & need that.
We have to wait for the waters to calm, before we can venture across this watershed.
Col

[Tommo1965]

theres a preview of the SD1 up on the DPR website. after reading that and looking at the camera body, the controls and the price/available lenses.....IMHO...if that body doesn't produce the best images anyone has ever seen..they will be hard pushed to sell any of them ..

[Othrelos]

for that price you would be better off buying a Leica M9, and a Summilux 50mm f/1.4 or a Pentax 645D which has a substantially bigger sensor, and better lenses and a bigger and brighter viewfinder. From what I have seen Foveon sensors have weak blues, I used one in a studio a few years back and the Foveon X3 sensor didn't handle mixed light sources very well at all. I surmise it is because of the way silicon absorbs light, but the X3 sensor didn't like me mixing continuous tungsten light with Flash at all.

[colinbm]

Until someone gets one in their hands for a review, we have to wait for the verdict.
Cheers
Col