National park fees

[atky]

Just got the form for commercial photography at Lake Gairdner National Park all I can say is you've got to be joking $540 for a day with no assistance. Shez (I wanted use another word) is this just a grab for money I would not mind paying for the purposes of gaining permission but come on $540 for access to take photos of something that is basically public property.
The images in our definition would be editorial.

[I @ M]

Well, if you are selling the images and provided a quote for your services you should have researched the costs involved and included them in your quote.
Argue the point that they are editorial and not commercial with the department concerned, perhaps a gentle hint that the "editorial' will also highlight the ridiculous charges they want to apply.

Yes, the prices that they expect are ludicrous and it does amount to an unreasonable cash grab, that is why the various bodies and individuals are getting up and protesting.
Join in and add your voice and signature, it will be better heard there rather than on a forum like this.

Read a bit more here.

[ameerat42]

Atky. U say "...form for commercial photography..." and "...basically public property..."
I was just wondering what the rest of the story is. Am.

Edit: In the meantime, Andrew replied, and I can see there's a commercial angle to your intention. OK.

[atky]

I am in the planing stage of shooting a motorsport event that is held at Lake Gairdner annually and gets little coverage I think I discovered why. As for the mentioned protests I know of them .
I will argue the point.

[kiwi]

Define commercial use

It's always been my understanding that you taking pics either for editorial use or for selling limited quantities from your website is not commercial use

It is commercial though in the sense that you are doing so for money

So I'd ask for their definition and then do it anyhow and argue the point later

[Analog6]

And what happens if you go and take some pics while you are on holiday and later someone wants to buy one - I cannot imagine any togs out there saying "Oh, no, I can't sell you that one"!

[dbax]

might also be worth speaking to the event organiser who would already have approval to stage the event ? They would have all sorts of support staff, surely a photographer might fit in there somewhere ?

[atky]

Have been in contact with organizers they informed me about needing permission. As for the definition this is an extract from the Email I received in reply.

"The Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) classify commercial filming and photography as any activity that produces images with the intention of using these for commercial gain. I presume from your description that your intent as a freelance is to sell your images, which classifies your activities as commercial. If this is the case you will require a permit from DENR to undertake photography on Lake Gairdner National Park."

[kiwi]

That sux. Highly unlikely that it's commercially viable eh

What's the penalty if you are caught I wonder

[atky]

This sentence was included in the previous paragraph how would you read it.
"If you do not intend to make financial gain out of your images then approval is not required - you may go ahead as planned."

[I @ M]

This sentence was included in the previous paragraph how would you read it.
"If you do not intend to make financial gain out of your images then approval is not required - you may go ahead as planned."

Combined with the previous email it is perfectly clear to me.

If you intend to derive any income from the images that you take in their precious little patch of dirt then you need to pay for a permit.

If you are merely there and taking images of an event that you aren't going to receive any payment ( cash or in kind ) then you don't need a permit.

I guess that if you were to be identified as having taken images without a permit then under the laws of the land they could probably seek punitive damages from you at a later date ( do I hear the term -- more revenue raising -- by any chance ) but by the heavy handed nature of that which they decide can happen on public ( tax payer funded to start with ) land it all smells of bureaucracy gone mad and there needs to be more public backlash against that sort of behaviour.

[Longshots]

Combined with the previous email it is perfectly clear to me.

If you intend to derive any income from the images that you take in their precious little patch of dirt then you need to pay for a permit.

If you are merely there and taking images of an event that you aren't going to receive any payment ( cash or in kind ) then you don't need a permit.

I guess that if you were to be identified as having taken images without a permit then under the laws of the land they could probably seek punitive damages from you at a later date ( do I hear the term -- more revenue raising -- by any chance ) but by the heavy handed nature of that which they decide can happen on public ( tax payer funded to start with ) land it all smells of bureaucracy gone mad and there needs to be more public backlash against that sort of behaviour.

Oh thank you - clear and concise, common sense advice on the actual topic.

[MarkChap]

This sentence was included in the previous paragraph how would you read it.
"If you do not intend to make financial gain out of your images then approval is not required - you may go ahead as planned."

See this is the bit I focused on, INTENT, if you don't intend to make financial gain, you pay no fee.

[atky]

See this is the bit I focused on, INTENT, if you don't intend to make financial gain, you pay no fee.

Thats how I read it the editor I was hoping to submit the images and an article to is not interested in the event so I could go as a spectator HM still it will cost me about $800 fuel food park entry and time away from my other business. So the intent would be to go as a spectator take some happy snaps. That would be dishonest though ?

[Kym]

It's Lake Gairdner ?? NOT Sydney Harbour. DENR are complete idiots - no parts missing.

I have some slides from about 1997 when we up in that area. Other than the salt there is not much there.

[macrocephalic]

This sort of shit makes my blood boil. Where do a government entity get off, charging rates like that for a citizen to take pictures of public land?

[Analog6]

And that is the crux of it - it is OUR taxes that are supporting and making possible this and other pernitecky government entity - yet we have no say in their heavy handed approach. EVERY photographer should go and join the Arts Freedom Australia people - it's only $2.00 (link in second post here)

[Wayne]

Commercial gain - doesnt necessarily mean payment, only if you profit. Cover your costs and you shouldnt need a permit would be my argument.

[Boo53]

Commercial gain - doesnt necessarily mean payment, only if you profit. Cover your costs and you shouldnt need a permit would be my argument.

Wayne, I think you are confusing gain & profit. Any payment in cash or kind is "gain".



Atky, have you raised the matter with your local MP's (Upper & Lower house).

A charge for commercial permits is probably justified if some facilities are involved, or you are likely to cause some "wear & tear" to the site, but $540 is just over the top.

If you do talk to your MP's remember they will probably have little knowledge of photography, other than their own happy snaps, and your a quite likely to get a response that tries to explain the departments side. Don't just mutter about bloody politicians and leave it at that. Use the 1st response as an opportunity to educate them, and hopefully they will go back in to fight for you (us)

[Wayne]

Wayne, I think you are confusing gain & profit. Any payment in cash or kind is "gain".

No, not at all.

From the Oxford concise;

commercial |kəˈmər sh əl| (abbr.: comm.)
adjective
1 concerned with or engaged in commerce : a commercial agreement.
2 making or intended to make a profit : commercial products.
• having profit, rather than artistic or other value, as a primary aim : their work is too commercial.
3 (of television or radio) funded by the revenue from broadcast advertisements.
4 (of chemicals) supplied in bulk and not of the highest purity.


Gain;
[mass noun]
1 an increase in wealth or resources
[count noun] :
shares showed gains of up to 21 per cent


So, simply receiving a payment does not constitute either something commercial or a gain, you only have those two, once you profit.