Just a rant...

[peterking]

Holy snapping duckshit!

Less than $20.00 per hour.

You're cheap.

I start at $35.00. I don't care how many people are involved.

I just quoted someone $200.00 to restore their computer and they went for it. After 24hrs consideration and talking to other people.

My philosophy is "Thats my price. If it doesn't suit you then I'm OK with that but I have a good idea what you're going to get for less." I'm not going to compromise my self.

[Erin]

So there's a way to fix it, in my simplistic way of thinking. Ok, so charge them $50 for the photography and an hour or so of your time. Anyone can click a button on a camera these days, right? At least that's the paying public's way of thinking. Then charge them $50 per hour of post processing you do for the 50 quality, flawless, press-ready images they're expecting. 1 hour per photo. 50 x 50. $2500 done. I know 'togs who are making a mint this way for model portfolios (they work through modelling agencies) in the states. This is where I've made my extra pocket money too.

Of course, that means learning new skills, but them's the breaks. Adapt, evolve, survive, succeed.

[Redgum]

Good thinking, Erin but all that your punters will do is book 2 hours of post processing ($100) and expect you to give them 50 photos for $150. If it gets more complicated they go somewhere else.

[flashpixx]

You're all wrong except Lani. This debate has little to do with "photography" or even your skills. Rather, it's all about marketing, selling ice to eskimos, as we use to say. Forget about photography as a profession and see it as a "product" or "service". Determine who you want to sell your product or service to and then go into business, not the other way round or you are bound to fail.
The first question you should ask yourself as a photographer is "what are my products?" Just one product/service will never work. The second question is "who needs to buy my product?". If you can't answer either of these questions then you should become a professional banker/teacher or whatever. (mind you, the same questions will arise).
I see a number of you have diligently set prices, created business plans etc., but how many have/will speak to their potential clients (in depth) about prices and plans before you start? Saves a lot of heartache.
Etherial got it right when he said "customers set the price". If you don't believe that you won't last in business. And if the prices they set won't pay the bills, do something else but don't whinge about it. That's the nature of business and always has been since the days of bartering.
One other thing that stands out in this thread is the single mindedness of those who want to go into business. Packer/Murdoch and every successful business person is pluralistic in his/her business activities. So, when photography is quiet you make pancakes or drive buses or make movies. Often you end up with multiple business activities each covering the other in their quiet times. The more these businesses are aligned with each other the easier it is to manage. My primary activities are filmmaking, photography, teaching/training and writing, allied with each other this keeps me in work all the time.

thanks for this, I wanted to write it but am too lazy to...

[bricat]

I understand and accept what Scotty and Wayne are saying... But the difference is that I don't expect retailer to sell me goods below cost... If they did I certainly wouldn't complain, but for example if I was bargaining for a price at harvey Norman, and I was honestly told that the price I wanted was actually below cost price, I would not push it to still get the low price, that's the difference here.

The Harvey Normans of this world often sell" below cost" They have a rebate system whereby a certain number of sales gives "X"discount but more sales gives" Y "discount. I checked around for tyres a while ago and best price I got was $350. per tyre. As luck would have it, it was at the end of the month and through a contact I paid $250. per tyre. Since I bought 6 tyres I saved considerably. I am sure that retailer didn't lose money because he is still in business.

My point being I bought the same tyre at a cheaper cost to me. So if I needed a pro tog I would get 5,10, or 20 quotes. No skin off my nose and I would choose the one I felt comfortable with. So I actually would pick the price point.

[farmer_rob]

Most retail/distributor systems have volume-based discount structures - I am sure it also applies in the camera marketplace. Unfortunately, this often plays into the hands of the big retailers (e.g. Harvey Norman) who get the volume to have large discounts and can sell and make a profit at a price often under what a small retailer can buy the product for. Often, service and knowledge is what gets squeezed out of the margins.

I don't think pro photographers have entirely the same discount issues at play - they are really selling a service, not boxes they buy in. So, I can't see them selling an extra wedding shoot at a discount at the end of the month "to get the numbers up". (However, it is sensible for them to look at ways of make good use of the things that cost them - e.g. offer more photos at a discount for a shoot that has been set up, or rent equipment for a week rather than a day - cheaper rates - and line up 5 days work using that equipment, passing on some of the discount.)

By all means shop around, but I think there is a problem if you get the cheap price from low-service supplier b and go back to high-service supplier a, who gave you all the help in the first place, and ask for the product at supplier b's price. The end result will be no high-service suppliers.

[Scotty72]

That is the way the world is going.

When was the last time you got service at a service station? There may still be the odd place where the guy pumps your petrol and checks your oil and wipers but, the last I can remember was at the Dickson shops (Canberra) circa 1990. Ask most gen Ys about full service stations and they will laugh at you, "why would you pay extra for that?"

Same for most retail joints: there was a time you could expect sales staff to know their product and spend time explaining the options. Now, some limply faced kid who thinks service is mumbling, "yeah, whaddya want mate!"

Even the products themselves are coming without manuals or guides (think apple iPhones etc) or are written by someone in China who really shouldn't; you're just expected to work it out.

It is ultimately the consumers decision that service has been eliminated from retail. We expect low prices so, if shop A invests in quality staff we will go there, pick their brains then walk across the street to shop B and buy (for less) from the mumbly kid with the attitude paid (desrvingly) far less. Soon, shop A has little choice than to employ their own mumbly kid (after sacking the quality staff).

Now, shop A can whinge all it likes about it but, that is how the world is going.

They either provide for the small amount of people who prefer service to price or they adapt.

Eventually, even the small niche dries up... Can anyone really find a full service garage anymore?if so, how many more cents per litre is it?

Scotty

[jasevk]

Can anyone really find a full service garage anymore?if so, how many more cents per litre is it?

Scotty

Yep, every second servo in Tasmania mate, and the servo down the road from me was usually the cheapest in the area with full service!

But Scotty, there's a massive difference between demanding a reasonable price and demanding a price below cost. The latter is obviously not sustainable.

[Scotty72]

I meant, a full service garage within civilisation

I'm telling you, they are as rare as hen's teeth in Sydney, Brisbane and (I assume - I frequent there far less often) Melbourne. I can't remember any in my recent trek around western NSW and Qld; nor my trip up to Bundy this past November for Dad's funeral.

Around the three big (population) states where most of the retail battles are fought out, they are very rare indeed.

When I go into a shop (petrol, camera, clothes, whatever), I don't know, or care, what their costs are and neither do you (if you're honest). The last time you bought petrol (where their margins are so tight, they make their $$$ from us buying chocolates, smokes etc), did you really (hand on heart now) go in and say, 'Considering your costs and a fair profit margin, let's negotiate a price per litre.' Or did you just find the cheapest price on the sign out front?

If you didn't offer the guy a fair price for his petrol (remember, he is prob a struggling small business too), then it is very 'rich' for you to demand he treat you as some special case - you squeeze him but, how dare he squeeze you? Sounds very hypocritical to me.

Scotty

[farmer_rob]

That is the way the world is going....

Maybe, but I don't have to like it.

...They either provide for the small amount of people who prefer service to price or they adapt.

Eventually, even the small niche dries up...

The problem in Australia is that the niche is too small to be sustainable - we are a small, geographical widely dispersed marketplace (ironically, best served by the possibilities of the internet). A more geographically concentrated marketplace, with a larger population is more able to sustain small niches.

[jasevk]

Civilization? You mean there's something else across the water??? Hehe

But the thing is Scotty, I don't question the price of my fuel, because I already know how little they make per litre, and I buy meat and produce from the grower direct when I can, and I rather pay a good local mechanic decent rates for my car service... Because I was raised to believe in supporting local community. So I also expect that other people show me the same respect when I tell them that I'm actually quoting 'cost price' for their portrait session, and that they won't rudely demand that I do it for a loss!

Perhaps it's wrong or unrealistic to expect that, but I would've categorized that sort of thinking as common decency?

[kiwi]

i think thats reasonable

[Scotty72]

i think thats reasonable

I don't. And the evidence, as demonstrated by consumer trends, suggests that you are in a rapidly shrinking minority.

Actually, I too have nostalgic tendencies:

I pine for the days of good service: when the person serving me actually knew my name (hey, I'd settle for the person serving me actually interrupting their conversation about what a hottie Justin Bieber is & looking me in the eye);

I'd love if the guy at the camera shop actually knew what a reverse grad filter was; and

I'd be over the moon if you could ring our major telco and speak to someone in Australia who could actually speak in English so as I did not have to guess at what they are trying to tell me.

But, if all the prices for these things were increased 20% to pay for my nostalgic wish list, I'd find an cheaper alternative. I suspect 90% of Australians would too. Well, the 90% of Australians who shop at Woolies / Coles would: they are already happy to put the local produce guy out of business by buying imported fruit, veg and processed foods.

Scotty

[Scotty72]

Civilization? You mean there's something else across the water??? Hehe

But the thing is Scotty, I don't question the price of my fuel, because I already know how little they make per litre, and I buy meat and produce from the grower direct when I can, and I rather pay a good local mechanic decent rates for my car service... Because I was raised to believe in supporting local community. So I also expect that other people show me the same respect when I tell them that I'm actually quoting 'cost price' for their portrait session, and that they won't rudely demand that I do it for a loss!

Perhaps it's wrong or unrealistic to expect that, but I would've categorized that sort of thinking as common decency?

With all due respect...

When any business tells me they are offering me something 'at cost', my BS meter goes off. I start to think, 'Is this guy really willing to make no profit? Is he really making zero from this because I am such a good customer?'

So, if you are really offering yourself at cost, may I suggest you register as a charity?

[geoffsta]

To me the client knows there are three different types of photographers.
1. Professional. The client knows that they are going to be charged accordingly.
2. Hobbiest. The client thinks that the TOG is doing it for his own enjoyment, and will give them what they think they deserve. (generally the cost of the blank CD)
3. Sideliner. (Someone that has a normal job, but wants to make a bit extra through photography) This is a bit harder for the client. A clear sense of thought would be that the TOG already has a job. Why pay him/her the same as a professional. He/she doesn't need to feed the family / pay the bills just from photography. And pay them the same as a hobbiest. They don't take in the need for training, equipment or consumables that is required to give them what they want.

These are my thoughts on this subject..........

[jasevk]

With all due respect...

When any business tells me they are offering me something 'at cost', my BS meter goes off. I start to think, 'Is this guy really willing to make no profit? Is he really making zero from this because I am such a good customer?'

So, if you are really offering yourself at cost, may I suggest you register as a charity?

What a sad and mentally exhaustive world you must live in! I'd hate to be so paranoid that someone is trying to constantly screw me!

Actually, as a part timer, at this point all I want is for my costs to be covered and to slowly raise some capital, all part of my business plan - therefore are all costs

[Scotty72]

To me there are three different types of photographers.
1. Professional. The client knows that they are going to be charged accordingly.

That is true. If you know you're getting a premium product / service, you may well happily pay extra for it.

For eg. I refuse to buy my fresh fruit & veg from the supermarkets: frankly, their product is crap.

We buy from a local organic, in season mart. It can cost up to 20% more but, we are happy to pay because we are confident that: it is fresh (not up to 12 months old - in cold storage); not pumped with preservatives / pesticides; and not imported.

As an aside, the Xmas / new year period is terrible as the organic mart closes for 10 days; we are forced to eat (and often regurgitate) Woolies rubbish (shudder).

But, the difference with a local photographer is customers may not know what they are getting. People are wise to scams where sample portfolios are much better than the photographer (some steal other's and represent as their own etc). So, if you have a name and people know the are getting the premium, they wont risk it and go for price.

In fact, many people may know there is quality but, still not be willing to pay the premium. Visitors to our house comment on the tasty, fresh fruit and meat; even ask where we get it. Most reply, once we tell them, 'I'm not paying that much, that's a rip off.'

I think that most people have 1 or 2 pet products for which they are willing to pay a premium - but mostly, they will go the cheapest. Just think of day-care (most don't value that); most parents are happy to leave the most precious things in their lives in the hands of the cheapest provider who, in turn, pays the least to their staff. Was it last year then fed govt tried to increase the minimum staff to kid ratio, forcing up the cost to parents - oh the howls of protest by parents when their kids welfare is increased.

But, I am way off topic and ranting... as per the thread

[Scotty72]

What a sad and mentally exhaustive world you must live in! I'd hate to be so paranoid that someone is trying to constantly screw me!

Actually, as a part timer, at this point all I want is for my costs to be covered and to slowly raise some capital, all part of my business plan - therefore are all costs

So, in other words, you are happy to undercut the pros by devaluing their product so as to sustain your hobby into business. But, when it's done to you?

And, if you are so naive and trusting when a salesman cuts you a 'special deal'... You must be Honest Jim the used car sales guy's favourite customer.

[jasevk]

So, in other words, you are happy to undercut the pros by devaluing their product so as to sustain your hobby into business. But, when it's done to you?

And, if you are so naive and trusting when a salesman cuts you a 'special deal'... You must be Honest Jim the used car sales guy's favourite customer.

Not at all, I've identified all my costs, seriously ALL of them, including business objectives for the next 3yrs, and priced around that, I'm probably not as expensive as the established pro - but I don't currently have a studio to run... Therefore my overheads are alot lower than the pro running a studio.... So no Scotty, it's not undercutting, it's my pricing model based on an extensive costing excercise. But I Should've expected that you'd argue for the sake of arguing :P

[jasevk]

And, if you are so naive and trusting when a salesman cuts you a 'special deal'... You must be Honest Jim the used car sales guy's favourite customer.

You don't know me at all to call me naive, and for large purchases, I dot homework and know what I hope to pay before I buy... So please Scotty, just quit with the attacks bro