Just a rant...

[kiwi]

Yip, another interesting observation I'll make t that its not often that ft pros actually whinge, it's those caught between hobbyist and professional, and it's usually a realization that there's a big leap from sustaining a hobby to sustaining a career....part time or full time.

[jasevk]

Yip, another interesting observation I'll make t that its not often that ft pros actually whinge, it's those caught between hobbyist and professional, and it's usually a realization that there's a big leap from sustaining a hobby to sustaining a career....part time or full time.

Oh I hear plenty of full time pros whinging too! The plan I've developed for myself is based purely on sustaining a part time operation, and building my studio over the next 3 years, and my pricing model supports this obviously, but that won't stop me getting annoyed by the attitudes of some potential clients.

[Scotty72]

I tend to agree with Wayne insomuch as he talks of the hypocrisy of it.

We all look for the bargain: We will never again pay many thousands for a TV; if you are a parent who pays $$ for private schools, you will whine when the fees increase; if you send them to a public school, you'll complain when it asks for the voluntary contribution (about half refuse); we shudder at the prices for a day at the (insert your favourite sport here), we complain when the tradesman charges $xx to 'just show up'.

My wife is a specialist dentist; a regular dentist often needs to refer patients to her for a specialist's opinion. This often doesn't involve her doing anything, just giving her professional opinion as to what needs doing - by the regular dentist. Well, most (not some) patients whinge and whine when she presents them with a bill, "... but, you didn't do anything! You bloody dentists just rip people off!"

No doubt some photographers are amongst those who whinge.

My profession is no different: people want qualified, specialist teachers to privately tutor their kids but want to pay us as if we are uni students.

Same for day care: most parents want to pay peanuts for day care then complain when they get monkeys. I can't understand how parents want to leave their kids in the hands of underpaid workers - I would hope that parents love their kids more than that.

A mate of mine needed to get his GP to fill in a form for workers' compo. This required the doc to give give professional opinion based on an examination. My mate had an almighty rant about the $50 charged.

And, how many people complain at having to pay a $15 (or whatever) gap? Unbelievable! (except for pensioners and the chronically ill perhaps) Worse when they complain with a cigarette hanging from their mouth about having to pay for a doctor.

I think every profession, quasi-profession, trade or occupation suffers the same problem; respect for skills, experience and costs has been eroded and we expect that everyone's services (other than our own) should be valued very lowly.

Do photographers always offer full price? Perhaps then complains from photographers like that above would be legit.

[jeffde]

I've changed my business model -
Make it no risk for the client - nothing up front - they pay (more sometimes) if they like you work.
Its working - no risk for the client - if they don't like - they don't pay.
Its the way that all businesses are changing - you must adapt.

Want a copy of my busines plan - mmm i'll charge you for that cause i've spent about $2K talking to people about how to do it ( and all i got was words...)

[jasevk]

I understand and accept what Scotty and Wayne are saying... But the difference is that I don't expect retailer to sell me goods below cost... If they did I certainly wouldn't complain, but for example if I was bargaining for a price at harvey Norman, and I was honestly told that the price I wanted was actually below cost price, I would not push it to still get the low price, that's the difference here.

I make no secret to my clients that my price is based on my costs plus hourly rate plus gear maintenance and upgrade allowance based on average number of jobs per year, most have not had any issues with my pricing during 2010, but there are a few who seem to be rude enough to push for lower rates despite being told that it's not even covering my costs.

[Lani]

Maybe the answer is to target your marketing to the type of clientele you want to attract, those that are willing to pay for the service you offer. Avoid the mates and friends situations.

[ving]

like mongo said...

photography is open to every tom, dick and harry... DSLRs are within easy reach of most these days. The trade is suffering because of it and there is little that can be done. Eventually the hacks will be weeded out but in the mean time 20 more will replace them... I have a feeling that unless youhave a huge name for yourself then in the near future pro togs will be offering very low prices.

what can ya do huh?

[Scotty72]

I don't understand why you are complaining?

I am sure that if you (or I) visited your local Ferrari dealer and he offered to sell you the latest and greatest model, straight off the showroom floor, for less than a Hyundai Getz, you wouldn't hesitate to buy 10 of them. So long as you get the goods legally and in saleable condition, you wouldn't consider if he's making a loss or not.

Plenty of farmers make losses (or very skinny profits) from their produce, do any of us go into the supermarket and demand we pay more so they can make a decent living? Do we demand the upping of import duties to give local retailers and suppliers a fair go?

Do we demand to pay higher taxes so our nurses, mental health workers and teachers a more competitive salary? Or, do we accept they they are paid less and less when compared to other professions and not give a damn (unless you are one of them).

Not likely. We hunt for the bargain / demand less taxation.

To be honest, it is not the customers obligation to ensure that you are properly compensated for your time, or to maintain your equipment. If the manager at Hervey Norman gave you a line about the rent he has to pay, the increasing electricity bill or the fact that his staff wages have gone up 5%, you'd probably just walk out and think the guy was a lunatic.

We all set our prices; if the customer wants lower then, they can accept the risk of a lesser quality.

Scotty

[farmer_rob]

Too often, the customer (be it of photography, TVs or farm produce) wants the high quality, but not the high price - they then bitch and moan that "beef is too expensive" and "the budget steaks are too tough". Australia as a market is conditioned to want the "bargain" product, and hence, there iis not much of a market for the "quality" product. The more suppliers in the "quality" market, the more go out of business, because it is too small and there are fixed costs that cannot be beaten by "productivity improvements" and "efficiency" (and in some cases "economy of scale"). I could bore you rigid on the issues of making a living in primary production (I don't), but I'll try to be kind and stop typing now

[pcbermagui]

I started to comment on this tread but it got so long that I've put it in a new one.
pcbermagui

[etherial]

At the end of the day, customer set the price.

If Joe Bloggs with his $1000 kit can take the images someone wants for $50 then that is what it is worth. But if someone wants photography of their wedding and they are worried Joe Bloggs will stuff it up, they might find someone with more expertise they can trust more and pay a little more. It all comes down to what customers value the service at.

Life is full of examples where new technology or developments have made things more accessible to the public and devalued other industries or services. Email vs Posting a letter, Internet or TV vs newspapers, live tv vs attending the event, dvd/video vs going to the movie theatre...

As unfortunate as it is for some people just have to learn to live with it.

[jasevk]

At the end of the day, customer set the price.

.

I disagree, I set my price, and if the client doesn't like my price, they're more than welcome to stop pestering me and go elsewhere! For every silly query I get, there's never been long between them and a serious client who accepts my quoted price.

[Scotty72]

I disagree, I set my price, and if the client doesn't like my price, they're more than welcome to stop pestering me and go elsewhere! For every silly query I get, there's never been long between them and a serious client who accepts my quoted price.

Perhaps what Mic meant was that vendors no longer have the power over the customers they have gotten used to in this country (as evidenced by Gerry Harvey and co having their dummy spit when other retailers want to play in the sand-box).

Customers increasingly have a range of options that they did not before - and the vendors relied on this to keep prices high. In fact they still do - look at the way publishers of all types of media seek to lock us out of the US online market (Apple, Kindle etc.) where books / songs etc are up to 50% less than what they cost in Oz. The excuse given is that distribution agreements designed to protect the local market forbid overseas competition. Local vendors seem to want to ensure there are fewer options.

Similar for togs: 2 decades ago, it was expensive to buy equipment, difficult to learn and customers had few choices.

Today, equipment is cheap, there are a million ways to learn pretty well / quickly and customers have a myriad of choice.

Vendors who want to live in past, restrictive markets are doomed to fail - the internet can not be un-invented, customers can not be fooled into believing they have no option any more.

Scotty

[etherial]

I disagree, I set my price, and if the client doesn't like my price, they're more than welcome to stop pestering me and go elsewhere! For every silly query I get, there's never been long between them and a serious client who accepts my quoted price.

That's right they will go elsewhere and pay the price that they want to pay, therefore they pay what they want - they set the price. The clients you are getting have set themselves a different price point and matches yours, so market to them and forget the rest.

[Wayne]

Welcome to Capitalism.

[Redgum]

You're all wrong except Lani. This debate has little to do with "photography" or even your skills. Rather, it's all about marketing, selling ice to eskimos, as we use to say. Forget about photography as a profession and see it as a "product" or "service". Determine who you want to sell your product or service to and then go into business, not the other way round or you are bound to fail.
The first question you should ask yourself as a photographer is "what are my products?" Just one product/service will never work. The second question is "who needs to buy my product?". If you can't answer either of these questions then you should become a professional banker/teacher or whatever. (mind you, the same questions will arise).
I see a number of you have diligently set prices, created business plans etc., but how many have/will speak to their potential clients (in depth) about prices and plans before you start? Saves a lot of heartache.
Etherial got it right when he said "customers set the price". If you don't believe that you won't last in business. And if the prices they set won't pay the bills, do something else but don't whinge about it. That's the nature of business and always has been since the days of bartering.
One other thing that stands out in this thread is the single mindedness of those who want to go into business. Packer/Murdoch and every successful business person is pluralistic in his/her business activities. So, when photography is quiet you make pancakes or drive buses or make movies. Often you end up with multiple business activities each covering the other in their quiet times. The more these businesses are aligned with each other the easier it is to manage. My primary activities are filmmaking, photography, teaching/training and writing, allied with each other this keeps me in work all the time.

[bobt]

My weekend workshops fee is $295 for 15hrs over Fri nite + Sat + Sun [& discounts are available for 'mates rates'] and there's a max of 10

Now this isn't going to win me any friends, but any decent discussion has to have differing points of view.

If you teach on weekends only, and have 4 weekends off a year, then you'd be running a total of 48 courses per year. If each course earns a gross $2950, then this gives you a gross income of $141,000 per annum for working part-time and having all the rest of the week to yourself. Now that's obviously a simplistic look at it, and there are various overheads and other factors to consider. However, it's still a pretty generous income for working part time. It's a higher income than most people get working full time.

We are all photographers here, some for fun and some for profit - but just as the big retailers are finding out, photographers need to adapt to the laws of supply and demand and look at what is reasonable rather than what we think we are worth. Gerry Harvey is finding out the hard way in Victoria that you can't cry poor in a market where consumers can do better elsewhere (don't know if you non-Victorians are aware of the current storm on that issue).

Personally, I feel that there are many services which are over priced and photographers are often amongst those. This invariably brings out howls of complaints because obviously none of them would acknowledge any inflation in their prices. However, as others have noted - the digital age is now a reality, and acceptable photography can be produced more easily and more cheaply than ever before. If photographers continue to expect no change in their pricing structure, then perhaps they will notice increasingly lean years ahead. If they want to survive then they have to adapt, just like all the other industries which have had to adapt before them. Recent years are filled with companies who have either adapted or failed, and the failures are those who would not adapt.

OK .... you can start throwing stones now .......

[kiwi]

I'm sure red gum your right tha you can't survive in any business these days, or most anyhow, with either diversifying or beung very specialized...the middle ground is just that

I also believe that for every 1000 potential clients that will only spend $100 on a simple family shot there are 10 that will spend $1000

[Redgum]

Don't quite get your point, Kiwi. With 1000 clients you would make $100k. With 10 clients only $10,000. To earn the same income you would need 100 clients at $1000. Much harder to do. Unless you run Casinos or build bridges, specialisation can be very difficult and capital intensive. People like Russell Crowe worked in bars most of his life until he won an academy award (specialist actor). After you make your fortune (good marketing) you can do whatever you like. Beforehand, you need to work in a bar so to speak.
I guess Bobt would say that Russell Crowe is overpriced? Probably is but I'm not going to tell him.
Anyone can be a professional photographer but only a good diversified business person can make money.

[kiwi]

No, sorry, my point was that for every 1000 clients that there are that would pay no more than $100 there will be 10 that will pay $1000 or whatever - the challenge is to find those 10