Amateur wedding 'tog got in the way!

[Mat]

Just to add yet another story, another friends wedding, they hired a pro, I did take my camera along (my husband and daugter, who was only 3 at the time, were both in the wedding party! Couldn't NOT take my camera! LOL).
However I did chat to the tog while we were there (as I was 'behind the scenes' too to help my daughter get ready). He didn't mind at all with me there, we quite often had a little friendly photography related chat. This was LONG before I started taking photos for anyone else mind you.
ANyway, even back then I didn't 'steal' his shots. He set them up and I just stood back and watched. I did get a few of my own in between. But after the ceremony when the tog was doing the usual shots with the new couple & their guests, he would set up, take the photos, and then say "Anyone else like to take some phtoos, now's your chance'. He allowed all the guests to come and tkae photos before moving to the next set up, and he'd do the same again. He was a really nice guy and I think everyone appreciated him inviting the guests to take some photos for themselves.

I have had a very similar experience, I took shots from my spot (all the guests were standing as it was at Sydney Harbour) I stayed right out of the way and as far from the pro tog as possible. When it came time to the formal shots he set them up and after his shoot he then handed it over to the guests (about 10 of us) with cameras to take our shots. He even offered me and some of the others some advice. Respect does go a long way. After the couple had already received their pro shots, I gave them a disc with mine on it. they were very happy with some of my shots as the pro left half way through the reception and I had continued to shoot. I was also the only one who got a shot of the cars, yes even the pro missed that one.

I guess that it can be good that some of the guests take their camera but they must respect the pro's (and couples) rights and wishes, wait your turn and not get in the way.

[arthurking83]

.....

Sorry, that post was a bit long winded.

Not in the slightest!

actually gives the thread a bit more balance.

..... Put it this way, there was a few other people there with dSLR's. Most had the kit lenses, one had a nice fisheye, and there were numerous point n shoots. Did they bother me? No. They didn't get in the way, and they were very discreet. ....

place a loaded gun in the middle of a busy city street, is it going to kill anyone?

So it seems turning up at a wedding with a DSLR isn't can be socially acceptable as some around here would have believe it isn't.

The actions of one inconsiderate person ruins the whole premise of a hobby for the rest of us.
Yet there were other guests with high end gear that seemed to have an idea of the term 'consideration' means.
At the rate that these types of threads proliferate, it won't be long before the government will have to intervene and ban the carriage of DSLRs at wedding ceremonies unless the owner of such a devastating weapon can prove they're an accredited wedding photographer, with 'ze correct papers!'

On the basis of what the OP has posted so far:
I guess you can't really blame this interventionist stooge either tho.
He wasn't explicitly told by the paid photographer, on the day, to maintain some decorum once the paid tog arrived
If it were explained to him at an earlier date by the bride, that there is a paid photographer, then it should have also been explained to him to work with the photographer and be sure to not work independently, but this would have been best explained to him on the day so it remained fresh in his inconsiderate psyche.
It also seems that this other chap was at the wedding prior to the paid tog, so he must surely have achieved some images that the paid for tog couldn't possibly have got himself.. and so is this a bad thing?

I use a DSLR, I only ever carry a DSLR. I don't own any other digital camera, other than a DSLR. If I attend a wedding, I take my DSLR(although with only a 50mm f/1.2 lens. I see no problem with that, and (for me) I can only see problems with trying to use my daughters P&S if I wanted to get any images of the occasion for my self.
I suppose I should feel safe in that I don't own a white car(nor ribbon) and I gave my (considerable) barby to my brother(for now), so he'd have to bring the barby for me.. if I ever felt the need too!

Comparing the carriage and use of a DSLR to a wedding by a guest as akin to taking a white car with a ribbon or barbeque is just as ludicrous as my analogy to the gun is.
Maybe we need to initiate the process of a petition for the government to effect laws against this kind of event terrorism.

Considering the points made by the OP, it appears to be a simple open and shut case of a lack of understanding by this other person.
More importantly and any others out there that may possibly face a similar situation, maintain control over the event at all times and be assertive over any ring ins. Explain it in a loud and confident manner that everyone concerned should concentrate their gazes and efforts on themselves.
The OP should also have allowed this ring in at least some leeway in getting their shots too, either between ideas, lens changes, scene set ups.. etc.
I really can't see why there should be any consternation against this spoiler to be honest, he was probably assuming that he was doing someone a favour by insuring that the bridal party would get some good shots. Put the shoe on the other foot, and try to see it from his perspective too(as per Gypsy's reply).

As others have said, communication directed at this spoiler guy, seemed not to be as well expressed(to him) as it could have been(or at the appropriate time).

With our liberties being eroded, by the evil few with little understanding of the craft, the last thing we need is to hear similar topics being expressed by the people apparently with a keen interest in the genre too!
This all seems to be a weird case of 1984(Orwell!!.. not Van Halen!.. you doofus ).
Whether implied or blatant, I believe there should never be any negative discussions and ideas of guests bringing their gear along to such events, especially on a forum that caters to all manner of photography.
We should leave that kind of insipid commentary to the elitist hacks that frequent other fora(and governmental ignoramuses) ... not here!
Ideas on how to better deal with such issues(for the working photographer) would be more appropriate material for reading rather than talk of leaving DSLR gear at home.

FWIW, I wouldn't carry a 70-200/2.8 on a DSLR as a guest at a wedding, but most definitely a DSLR and a fast fifty(either the 50/1.4 or 50/1.2??).
As an assumed, and asked for, second shooter(or helper) I most definitely would have carried a 70-200/2.8.. and all my other gear. But with a particular key difference to how this running around 70-200/2.8 toting chap went about it all.. I'd have worked with the main photographer at all times(not necessarily for him.. as per Gypsy's response), and waited for key moments to do my stuff.

[Analog6]

Hi Tom I think that a shot that I take myself has that personal feel. I know that if I snag a keeper that I will make a copy for them and you could say that they will not buy a print from the pro but I take a lot longer to get my shots from camera to print.

Exactly how I feel, you get a sense of pride at the shot you take yourself. I think as long as you wait until after they have selected and paid for their shots form the pro I (if they contracted the pro on a pay for prints basis) before you offer them yours then there is no conflict.

[Longshots]

OK my analogy was meant to be ludicrous I actually agree with Arthurking's response on many levels. And thanked them for raising their points.

However, as Kiwi asked but what if we enjoy taking pics. Yes, good point. But as you'd know, it can easily change from enjoying something, to becoming something that, we you agreed to do it chore. And thats my point about simply enjoying the actual event. I was referrring to me on this point btw and not anyone else. I was talking about how I would leave MY camera at home, because I want to be there as a guest and not as a second, first, third shooter. And yes I have no problem with guest with any type of camera. Its when they have a full kit (with large bag), are directing the event, or are changing the flow of the event simply because they're in the way.

Yes, many shooters will accommodate guests personal needs. And leeway, is definitely the word for these type of events. In fact for the main group shots, I would often ask if guests wanted to give me their cameras as well, and I would shoot a shot on each of their cameras. That way, I would ensure I'd have happy guests, and they would all stay in place for the group shots.

If it was a major issue, this type of topic would be posted after every weekend, but it isnt. Its one inconsiderate person, who while they may think they're out of the way, they clearly werent. Yes perhaps the OP would want to encourage more prior communications with their clients before the event.

I do have to say that from the weddings I use to shoot, from my perspective, there is no time in between lens changes, between ideas, between set changes - my work flow is always one of those non stop events from the moment I arrive till I leave.

[ZedEx]

Just out of interest, what did you charge your sister to shoot her wedding??

Not to shoot the wedding itself, though she will pay me for framing or prints (obviously discounted a lot). She paid for my accomodation and expenses while in the city for her wedding as well By and large it was a wedding gift, but I was certainly contracted as the photographer.

[virgal_tracy]

I work as a primary and 2nd wedding tog so this comes from some experience. JUst some questions answered if you could so that I can get a better handle on the situation.

With people thinking that he was the paid pro before you got there, did he do anything to paint you in a bad light? If he was unprofessional then I could see that detracting from peoples thoughts of you.
Did he continue to get in the way after your partner had a word with him? This isn't explained in the OP.
How does him getting group shots amongst the mob after the ceremony differ from any other guest with a P&S aprt from him needing to be further back if he still had the 70-200 on. Can you explain more about him getting in the way of family group candids?

Without a little more explanation I don't see what he has done as explained in the OP is too different to a multitude of family members that run around during a wedding. He doesn't appear to have gotten in the way of the formals or the portraits, you haven't mentioned anything about the ceremony itself or about the reception.

My only major concern from the information posted was he thought that he could make money off of the shoot. That I would have a problem with.

A little clarification would help please.

[Ethony]

I have had this happen, even better when it is the Mother of the Groom who dragged her son away for family group shots with her sister taking the photos with a Point and Shoot.

I am no shrinking violet and I politely told her that I needed the Groom and that when I was finished with the shots they were paying me for, she could have him all to herself. She tried it more than once on the day, her husband told her to stop eventually thank goodness.

Communication is key, you are right. It is rather frustrating though.

[I @ M]

To me it simply boils down to lack of preparation and planning ( we all know what that leads to ) as most wedding photographers that are contracted ( paid or not ) to photograph the wedding will have established the ground rules regarding photography at the event well and truly before they arrive at the gig.
Being forewarned that there was going to be an uncle of a brother's cousin there who was going to do some photography should have set alarm bells ringing straight away and the foot should have been put down immediately and later enforced that it simply wasn't on to get in the contracted photographers way.

If he had already been told that he wasn't to get in the way prior to the event and he insisted on doing so then plan B should have been brought into action ( once again proper planning ) and a suitably hefty person should have been dispatched to "convince" him that he was starting to spoil a damn good day ( the brides, after all ) and that is the last thing anyone wants.

[ZedEx]

I'm as yet unsure if he acted innapproapriately before my arrival. The thing is, he was asking the staff for places to put all lhis gear bags etc, so immediately they at least had that idea in their head. As I have said, for the most part I got all the shots I wanted, but having friends mob to the bride and groom and then looking at the other guys camera is a bit rough. Sure, it's no different to a p&s, but a 5d with 70-200f2.8 is about 60 million times larger and more obtrusive
He didn't get in the way for 90% of the reception. Leading into the ceremony he did get in my way as I was running along backwards getting some shots of my sister and father (bride and father of the bride) walking in. After a talking to from my partner, after the ceremony, he did back off during the reception. By which point it wasn't of much consequence anyway as I had all the important shots and was just recording the rest of the evening ambiently.

My main gripe is that now, there will be guests who will say to my sister 'oh i had such and such picture taken, where is it?' and if i can track them down from this other fella he may either A)charge a different rate or B) reflect poorly on my own efforts if his images are of a different quality. This is the main issue, standing above all else. I got most of the shots I needed.

I@M, you are definitely right. As I am not experienced in dealing with such anomalies, I just completely underestimated what could happen. The main reason I put the thread up was as an example to other photographers and an anecdote to show what CAN happen if one is ill prepared. What's that saying again? Proper preparation prevents piss poor performance

I work as a primary and 2nd wedding tog so this comes from some experience. JUst some questions answered if you could so that I can get a better handle on the situation.

With people thinking that he was the paid pro before you got there, did he do anything to paint you in a bad light? If he was unprofessional then I could see that detracting from peoples thoughts of you.
Did he continue to get in the way after your partner had a word with him? This isn't explained in the OP.
How does him getting group shots amongst the mob after the ceremony differ from any other guest with a P&S aprt from him needing to be further back if he still had the 70-200 on. Can you explain more about him getting in the way of family group candids?

Without a little more explanation I don't see what he has done as explained in the OP is too different to a multitude of family members that run around during a wedding. He doesn't appear to have gotten in the way of the formals or the portraits, you haven't mentioned anything about the ceremony itself or about the reception.

My only major concern from the information posted was he thought that he could make money off of the shoot. That I would have a problem with.

A little clarification would help please.

[Luna-blu]

As far as I can see the main reason to limit guest photography is to guarantee that the pro photos turn out well and you don't get into a bridezilla situation.
I would also explain that I am not opposed to others photographers being present, BUT, I am not responsible for the wedding party being distracted by other photographers and I am there to record the day as it happens.
You can't give an explicit guarantee on co-operation, all you can really do is ask and cover your ass.

[campo]

I had a celebrant's wife stand between me and the couple as i was attempting to shoot the couple signing the certificate. She also blocked the videographer - needless to say neither of us were happy. I missed the shots i wanted to get (ie. i like to grab the shots when they're actually signing to paper work) so i had to pose them afterwards and then photoshop the pen nib in etc...

After the ceremony I politely told her how she blocked both me and the videographer and if she wanted images, myself and most photographers would be happy to give the celebrant a few for their website.

[campo]

As far as I can see the main reason to limit guest photography is to guarantee that the pro photos turn out well and you don't get into a bridezilla situation.
I would also explain that I am not opposed to others photographers being present, BUT, I am not responsible for the wedding party being distracted by other photographers and I am there to record the day as it happens.
You can't give an explicit guarantee on co-operation, all you can really do is ask and cover your ass.

My contract encourages guest photography but I reserve the right to ask the guests not to take photos at certain times during the day (eg. the photoshoot). I also "cover my own bottom" by stating that whilst I will try my best, situations beyond my control (eg. guests getting in the way etc) may detract from the quality of the delivered products and I take no responsibility.

I try to be proactive and make it quite clear during the first few family shots that I take the first shot and then guests can grab some after me. After one or two groups, the guests generally have the procedure down pat and won't take pics until I've finished.

[nanwu]

i went to my daughters wedding earlier in the year and took along my camera, she had a professional photographer booked, he got caught in traffic and was very late so myself and my youngest sons girlfriend took photo's of the wedding party getting ready, until the paid tog showed up, we then both talked to him about if it was okay for us to take some more photo's during the ceremony and reception etc......he was great he took the wedding party and did all the shots my daughter wanted down on the beach etc then came back and set up a couple of extra shots for us to have bit of practice with.....also throughout the reception he gave me some tips on how to take certain candid shots so i went around taking candid shots of the guests while he took the more formal shots......it worked really well, i didn't get in his way, learnt a few things, and my daughter got all the paid photo's she wanted and also some freebie extra's from me, she also got shot's of before hand which if i hadn't taken my camera she would not of gotten.

[Clubmanmc]

wow

well here goes,

i ahve been on both ends of this, as a pro doing a wedding, I like JM will allow the people at the event to get some "moment shots" maybe at the altar, the signing of the registry, the cutting of the cake and the 1st dance, i have quite a loud voice, and usually shoot what i have to then stand back, and take a shot of all the cameras out taking the same picture...

if a "guest" riuned one photo, by "accident" i would very quickly, mention to him that he was in my way, and i would appreciate that he didnt... if they continued, i would have stronger words... but the B and G would have no idea of that

as a "friend" of the B and G at a wedding, i will introduce myself to the tog (when not busy) and i usually take my 70-200 and shoot from a distance (even bringing my 1.4x to get some extra reach) and stay RIGHT out the way

but thats cos i have been on both sides of the fence...

also I make myself quite approachble to the guests, as i am not on a time limited race thru their wedding day

but each to their own...

I can feel your pain, but seriously, if you had the time to get a shot of him then you should have had the time to talk to him yourself...

M

[Dan Cripps]

if you had the time to get a shot of him then you should have had the time to talk to him yourself...

Please...

[jeffde]

Hey been reading this thread for a while...
My wife and i have monogrammed shirts with our buiness name on them so when we turn up everyone knows who we are. Juls (wife) is more of an assistant but takes the occassional photo. Having the shirt gives her not only the confidence but the ability to step in and help on a shoot (wedding / portrait or function). All the guests at a wedding also know who we are and also makeup artists, limo drivers etc, and for me it works well. (and being Jeff D Photography) everybody knows my name ...

[Lanny]

I do weddings and really enjoy being involved in the celebrations. I can only go by what I have stated and that is this: As a photographer I have a contract that both parties sign and in the contract it stated thats at all times as the photographer I inherit the right to all images taken on the day....... The hired photographer has sole responsibility of taking all images that are required without interference of other parties present at the wedding. I usually introduce myself to the MC before the wedding and ask him/her politely to explain to guests that at the end of the ceromony that while the hired photographer is taking the photographs could those wishing to also take photos please reframe until the photographer has finished and I will invite others to take their own images after I am completed with the initial family photos. I know that at some stage I will be separating the bridal party from the guests and this is where their investment comes into true form. I always make sure that they know they have hired me to do a job and to get it right and that means I have full control over the images and the way they are completed. I allow no-one but my assistant to be present when I am one on one with the bridal party when we are off doing the shoot. Not only all this but I also want some fun and have them relaxed and enjoying the moment.

[LVL]

I had a friend get married last year and though I have a DSLR and count photography as one of my main hobbies I did not take my DSLR to the ceremony at which they had a professional photographer. I went there as a guest and friend and simply enjoyed the beautiful ceremony.

However, I and another friend of the bride with a DSLR, took our cameras to the reception, once the official photographer had finished their contracted duties. We took heaps of candid shots for the couple and their guests to enjoy later on. I have to say that in no way did it inhibit my enjoyment of the reception and it is great to look back and remember what a fantastic time was had by everyone. It also allowed the bride and groom to get a glimpse of a lot of moments they missed while they were occupied with each other or official duties and to show them people genuinely did have a blast.

I will also cite my brother's wedding as an example. They had a professional photographer for the ceremony but nothing organised at the receiption. My grandfather took along his video camera to the reception and managed to capture a really touching moment when my sister-in-law sung "my heart will go on" as a tribute to my brother. It is moments like these I aim to capture if I take my camera to a wedding which in no way impinge on the role of an official photographer at the event.

I absolutely agree with the advice given if you do decide to take your camera to the main event that you should approach the official photographer, explain your position and do your best not to hinder them in their duties. I for one would feel terrible if friends or family had spent the money on a professional photographer only to have their highly anticipated shots ruined by my blundering self.

[Scotty72]

Hmmm.

Wedding 'togs need to consider that guests do not sign bits of paper to give the ;tog priority/exclusivity etc. Guests are simply their to enjoy the moment and that often means grabbing a photo.

I agree that during the ceremony, guests should not leap up to the alter and block everyone's view. Then again, neither should the 'tog. I am sure we have all experienced the 'tog who is so focused on getting the shot that guests can't see anything other than his/her back-side. The guests are there to witness a friend's wedding, not a 'tog's ar#e. So, before getting shirty with guests, a 'tog should examine his/her own actions.

At the (less formal) reception, then it is more of a free for all. If your a pro, deal with it and stop whining. Is you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Almost every occupation deals with outsiders who 'get in the way'; they deal with them.

-teachers deal with parents who undermine their lessons / discipline
-police, with people who sticky beak around crime / accident scenes getting in the way offering advice.
-Washing machine mechanics who have customers looking over their shoulders asking stupid questions.
-Bus drivers who deal with drivers who park in bus stops, cut in front of their 20 tonne machine.
-Doctors with patients who self diagnose or bring know-it-all relatives who question the doc's motives

etc,

My advice, deal with it or find another job where people wont get in the way - maybe the lighthouse keeper on Midway Island.

Scotty

[bricat]

I would like to see someone stop me from taking photo's of my brother/sister/or relo wedding. Have been to many and everybody has a camera. Sure the paid photog has right of way and I would not interfere with his work unless he stopped me from taking my shots. After all I am a prick relo so I know the bride and groom. The protog has come and gone out of their life in a couple of hours. You don't have exclusivity to take photo's contract or not. And I have a 7D without a white lens but if I owned one you bet your life I would take it. So back to basics. You do your job under the conditions as presented to you but remember the guests are friends/relos of the bride and groom. And I can't remember ever having a problem with a protog at these events as I am conscious of their job. cheers Brian