Fair Price ? Whats concidered Fair Price

[Roosta]

I'm toying with the idea of starting a small Photo business, not looking at taking on the big boys, no shoulder barging. I was speaking to a model after a photo shoot I attended the other night, she was keen to get some of the shots the group had taken. Not all of the togs there where either keen on the shots they had taken and or that intrested in supporting her idea. (shoot was using different flash/night and angles Shadowing subjects and shutter speed effect)

I showed her some of the pics i'd taken and she was very keen to get her hands on them for her bio, So what i'm asking, is there a fair price to start at? was looking at may-be putting forward a propsal to do a shoot, PP the images she wants and put together something she can use as a bio.

Are there any legal ramifications on adding a watermark to the images I take/took if she hasn't paid for them and can I use them as advertising. She has given me her approval to put them on photo forums/sites Flicker and the like.

Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated.

[I @ M]

Have a look at Model Mayhem and see how many people there are in your area advertising that they either want to be paid for being photographed or at least happy to work on a TFP (Time For Print) basis to both build their own portfolio and the photographers.
There are relatively few aspiring or working models that want to pay to be photographed.

[Dan Cripps]

There are relatively few aspiring or working models that want to pay to be photographed.

That's generally true, unless you can produce something they can't get for free.

[ricktas]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it. That is your hourly rate, so from that you can start to work out how much to charge. based on your costs.

Agree with Andrew though, what was the deal for the model attending this shoot, was she paid, was it some sort of agreed exchange for her time etc. You need to consider that in the scheme of things.

[Roosta]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it. That is your hourly rate, so from that you can start to work out how much to charge. based on your costs.

Agree with Andrew though, what was the deal for the model attending this shoot, was she paid, was it some sort of agreed exchange for her time etc. You need to consider that in the scheme of things.

Thanks for that piece of advice Rick, will need to really look into this. Not only cost to myself, but family time aswell, given I work away over half the year (mining industry)

I attended a Photographic workshop run through my local Pro Camera Shop, They had two pros bring out some studio flash gear, 4 x models and different lenses for people to try. We (the attendies) paid for the evening and to which I can only presume the 4 x models where paid for from what we where charged. They provided their knowledge and CC on our shots and techniques, how to use flash Blah Blah Blah, (well worth it). Wanting to use same model to start with, both in agreeance to styles of shot, so I'll have to take it from there, she is keen to get pictures and i'm keen for the experience.

[Dan Cripps]

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling images created within the environment you have described. I also wouldn't use them in a portfolio. If you've been advised, helped, guided and critiqued during a shoot, you can't really claim 100% technical or creative ownership.

I think any prospective client has to right to expect anything they see in a photographers portfolio has been directed, captured and edited by said photographer.

[farquar]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it.

Out of interest, is this based on a particular business model Rick? One that you have proven to be a sustainable way to run a business? Do you believe this to be the industry norm when it comes to how to price your work? Or is it just a nice way to get a figure on an invoice?

Re the OP. I don't think you are ready to start charging for your images mate. Especially not images from a workshop! If you want to start a business (and there is a hell of a lot of research in the real world you should be doing before making the leap there) I suggest you go down the TFP route to build your portfolio. After all, that is what everyone else does.

[ricktas]

Out of interest, is this based on a particular business model Rick? One that you have proven to be a sustainable way to run a business? Do you believe this to be the industry norm when it comes to how to price your work? Or is it just a nice way to get a figure on an invoice?

Re the OP. I don't think you are ready to start charging for your images mate. Especially not images from a workshop! If you want to start a business (and there is a hell of a lot of research in the real world you should be doing before making the leap there) I suggest you go down the TFP route to build your portfolio. After all, that is what everyone else does.

Yes it is directly related to a proven business model. Of which there are several variations. Whilst you might be a photographer, my background is business.

[ricktas]

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling images created within the environment you have described. I also wouldn't use them in a portfolio. If you've been advised, helped, guided and critiqued during a shoot, you can't really claim 100% technical or creative ownership.

I think any prospective client has to right to expect anything they see in a photographers portfolio has been directed, captured and edited by said photographer.

Read the post. The thread starter states that they would be organising a separate shoot for the model, not using the ones created from the course shoot.

[Dan Cripps]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it. That is your hourly rate, so from that you can start to work out how much to charge. based on your costs.

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.

Is that fair?

I think that's an overly simplistic model.

[Dan Cripps]

Read the post. The thread starter states that they would be organising a separate shoot for the model, not using the ones created from the course shoot.

The OP is ambiguous.

[ricktas]

The OP is ambiguous.

How so?

looking at may-be putting forward a propsal to do a shoot, PP the images she wants and put together something she can use as a bio

is fairly clear!

[Wayne]

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.

Is that fair?

I think that's an overly simplistic model.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who can do business with a 100% margin would find it doesn't pay the bills. Unless you have poor spending habits, and don't pay your taxes for years and it catches up with you etc. I bet every business would love to run with margins of 100%

[ricktas]

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.

Is that fair?

I think that's an overly simplistic model.

So you include in your calculations:

Staff costs
rental costs
insurance costs
business expenses (printing, phone etc)
taxation commitments
etc

You get a total for all your business costs (whether by week, month or year) and then double it. Use that figure to work out a rate. It is a known standard business model.

Another alternative is to work out what you want to earn in a year (after costs). Say it was (for ease) $52,000, thus it is $1000.00 per week (ignoring that there are 52.4 weeks in a year), then to earn that $1000.00 per week, you need to work out all your costs for a week, add on the $1000.00 and you know what your weekly turnover needs to be. All good business plans have a model, which one you use is up to you, but there are many that work.

[Dan Cripps]

I find it hard to believe that anyone who can do business with a 100% margin would find it doesn't pay the bills. Unless you have poor spending habits, and don't pay your taxes for years and it catches up with you etc. I bet every business would love to run with margins of 100%

Depends how many hours you can reliably invoice every week, I guess...

Talk to anyone in the retail clothing industry and ask how easy it is to pay the bills with a 100% margin.

[farquar]

Yes it is directly related to a proven business model. Of which there are several variations. Whilst you might be a photographer, my background is business.

Rick, thanks for clearing that up. Are you able to point us in the direction of where to find more detailed information on this particular business model for a photogtaphy business?

I must say, by your tone I feel that you are making the assumption that I, as a photographer, am less qualified to be a successful business person than you are. My background (and current situation for that matter) are unknown to you so I find this assumption to be offensive.

Is your 'background in business' a background in the photography business?

I feel that we are getting a little off-topic here so perhaps we should start another thread. Apologies to Roosta, although perhaps you found this enlightening.

[farquar]

is to work out what you want to earn in a year (after costs). Say it was (for ease) $52,000, thus it is $1000.00 per week (ignoring that there are 52.4 weeks in a year), then to earn that $1000.00 per week, you need to work out all your costs for a week, add on the $1000.00 and you know what your weekly turnover needs to be. All good business plans have a model, which one you use is up to you, but there are many that work.

I can see this being a much more suitable model for a photography studio to operate with. Well articulated Rick. Very helpful post.

[ricktas]

My tone relates to the PM interaction between us, and as I discussed there was to do with you referring to a member as 'foolish', which as advised breaches the site rules!

My background is a degree in business, not photography as a specific. My posts are merely pointing out differing business models that the thread starter could consider as a starting point. I have not once made reference to your business (which I know nothing about, as you have stated). I have not called you foolish or any other word as a reflection on your business, so how you can be offended is quite amazing to me, unless you are offended that I warned you that I would ban you if you continue to make statements directed at members, rather than the issue.

I suggest you drop it now, or I will ban you!

[Kym]

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.
Is that fair?
I think that's an overly simplistic model.

Rick's formula is generically correct in business. I worked to something like that when doing contract software development a few years ago.
In fact my uplift was more - but my skills were in demand and I had a family to feed.
Part of the problem with photography is an over supply of skilled people, or people who think they are skilled

[Dan Cripps]

or people who think they are skilled

Aint that the truth!