The last two editions of Capture Magazine

[arthurking83]

..... using the finest craftsmanship in the automotive world.

most professional craftsmanship maybe?

[AmPhot]

Holy dog this thread is epic ! Anyway, as someone who has actually read these articles (I subscribe to Capture at the moment due to a cheap deal) I'll just say this : I like reading this magazine as it does give an insight into the photography industry and the sort of work professionals produce. As a complete amateur hobbyist I only know enough to be dangerous but I'd never dream of trying to sell my shots to the public as a way of earning money to support myself. I found the articles interesting but I did not find them insulting to me as an amateur, I thought it was merely people who work in the industry full time expressing their frustrations with what they are up against. I don't think it was badly worded or overly sensitive, and I would wager you will find similar articles in other professional industry publications.
I do feel the professional (whatever you deem that to mean) versus amateur / weekend warrior (I'm ex-military and I don't find the term insulting as I now am a reservist) is ultimately counter productive to everyone who shares a passion for photography. Do what you love, do the best you can if you're earning a living from it and try not to get hung up on people's opinions (harder for some maybe).

[Luna-blu]

Craft v Profession hmmm,

To be hosest it depends on the market you're selling to,

A fine art photographer could be called a craftsman,
but then wedding professional sounds more like what a bride wants to hear.

I guess like most things if it depends on your market.

[Longshots]

Many thanks AmPhot for reading the article and expressing your thoughts.

[Gremlin]

I kinda agree with Amshots although Ive read it a few times and well meh doesnt really faze me,
apart from that it took 9 pages of thread to remember to comment on the article itself

[bigdazzler]

Im not offended by it whatsoever .. but I feel that if the real purpose of the article was to "offer advice" for newcomers to the industry, as William has stated that he perceived the article, then why the need for the condescending tone and derogatory remarks and choice of words ?? Surely there is a more affable method of offering genuine advice ??

PS .. If I ever hear the word "pro" again .. it will be too soon
PPS ... I will add that some of the comments offered about running a business have sounded like they have been regurgitated from a TAFE text book about "how its supposed to be done."

[Longshots]

Darren if you're not offended by the article, why do you then go on to decsribe it as "the need for the condescending tone and derogatory remarks" ?

Personally I think there is some genuine advice there.

But its all a subjective view point and I can empathise with your view.

I'm quite sure that there intent was something quite different

[ricktas]

Darren if you're not offended by the article, why do you then go on to decsribe it as "the need for the condescending tone and derogatory remarks" ?

Personally I think there is some genuine advice there.

But its all a subjective view point and I can empathise with your view.

I'm quite sure that there intent was something quite different

I agree, there is some great and genuine information in the article, and even though this thread got a bit heated, if it makes the weekend warrior, someone just starting out, or another PRO, consider their pricing structure and review it, then it has acheived its goal. However, I feel the method of delivery of the message in the article could have been much improved on, which is the basic cause of the ire, that it has evoked.

In the end, discussions like this one, are productive, if nothing else, they have raised the consciousness of the issue of pricing.

[bigdazzler]

William, what I meant was that I found them to be as such in general, and was simply agreeing with Jims original point. Just a general observation really. In the wash-up of it all, I perceive it as a few photographers with their noses out of joint. Thats the only reason I see for the words chosen to express their positions. I just think the dialogue could have been a lot different.

It takes a whole lot to really offend me mate ... In fact, after a re-read last night, and with thouyghts of this thread, I had a good chuckle actually

[Longshots]

Yep I can agree with that

[jasevk]

I agree, there is some great and genuine information in the article,

In the end, discussions like this one, are productive, if nothing else, they have raised the consciousness of the issue of pricing.

Agreed... As I was reading them I could see that many part-timers would be rubbed up the wrong way... but it just depends entirely on what one does with the information. Do you take it as an attack on how you do your work? Or do you take it as a valuable insight into the workings of seasoned and successful professionals? To me, it was incredibly insightful, and too valuable to dismiss as an attack on WW's... far too valuable

[pvoices1971]

I have watched this thread being started by Jim on 3 forums now and I can honestly say this has been the most spirited of conversations, congratulations for that. I won't say too much as I feel that most has already been said, however as someone who aspires to one day do this full time as a family business I understand the importance of market perception. If you are perceived as someone who does not charge much for your work then it will be difficult to shake that tag, so we have done our cost analysis based on what we need to run this as a business (which includes the cost of day to day living), albeit conservatively at that, and we price accordingly.
I did not start charging until I was confident in my own abilities as a photographer AND a business owner. Don't quote me on this but I suspect the photography business is maybe 20% photography and 80% business, better make sure you got the 80% covered. Sometimes perhaps it is dismissed that this is after all a business and if one wishes to continue in this chosen business some things must happen. You must receive more money than you spend, that is called making a profit, if you continually don't profit from business, you don't have a business, you have an expensive hobby, and expensive hobbies won't pay the mortgage.
However if you don't want to make this your soul income, that is OK too. But I could almost guarantee there are a fair percentage of those hobbyists that one day will think, I reckon I could do this full time, and find themselves thrust into the midst of an undervalued market, where they must either raise prices to meet the new "cost of doing business" or do more work at the same rate to which they were supplying.
As a photographer I would much prefer pursuing my creative needs than doing more of the "sausage factory" get em in, get em out, shoot and burn gigs, but that is an ideal world and is based on my opinion only. I understand that making it in this game is going to be very difficult for the reasons and discussions posted in the previous 9 pages or so and I certainly cannot afford to make the leap until I know I can sustain a living, but I also understand that if I think and act like the person I need/want to become, then my chances are going to be a lot better than if I just accept that I'm a hobbyist that is happy to get some new gear once in a while from my "paid" gigs.
Please understand I'm approaching this from the perspective that I want to be in business, it is in no way a reflection of my thoughts or feelings towards the army of long term hobbyists, l of which I have many friends. Enough from me, and if you have read this to this point, thanks for hanging around to listen.

[Bear Dale]

Hey Jim I think we agree !!

Common ground!

When I do look at someones website that has stunning work, I don't think to myself "That person is a professional" I think "Thats someone who has mastered their craft".

[Longshots]

Common ground!

When I do look at someones website that has stunning work, I don't think to myself "That person is a professional" I think "Thats someone who has mastered their craft".

Oh god thats twice we agree then