Professionalism.

[bigdazzler]

Central Institute of Technology bigdazzler. TAFE in other words

ok cool .... I was just wondering if it was university/TAFE or one of those colleges. Congratulations mate .. thats a great achievement

[zollo]

I suggested that to the aforementioned-^^^-now-gone-know-all-member once before, and his response was something like that 90% of the full time professional photographers out there working have formal training. We dont seriously believe that do we ... ??

Definitely not. But Organizations such as AIPP and AAPP are pushing very hard for photography to be formalised and regulated. I know the English equivalent organizations are quite close to doing that in England.

thanks bigdazzler and kiwi it went a looong way to help me secure my first (photography) jobs!

[kiwi]

I suggested that to the aforementioned-^^^-now-gone-know-all-member once before, and his response was something like that 90% of the full time professional photographers out there working have formal training. We dont seriously believe that do we ... ??

Depends on the interpretation of formal training.

Im sure William is going to stumble upon this thread sooner or later

I'll take a stab in the dark though and say that if you took all the FT Professional Photographers / number of diplomas or degrees = < 5%

But, I have no data to support that, just a gut feel based on the ones that I know.

[Paul G]

Zollo how long were you involved in photography before your period of study? Curious to know if it was something you decided to do from scratch or if it stemmed from a lifelong interest with photography? I agree with what you say though but even after studying I'm sure there would be those who have not shared your success in being able to remain at it fulltime.

[kiwi]

For a giggle:

http://www.ici.net.au/photography-course/index.htm

[Paul G]

Im thinking of doing something like this .... At least everything will be shiny and Ill look professional

(Seriously though ... Nice workspace huh.)

Chase Jarvis Studio Buildout

Gotta say that's darn impressive! Even his toilet room looked good enough to shoot in! Bet there less then a few percent of photogs in the world who can have a set-up like that and have a large staff to boot.

Even his colleagues have impressive set-ups...

Chase Jarvis SHORTS: Pimped Photography Van

[zollo]

Zollo how long were you involved in photography before your period of study? Curious to know if it was something you decided to do from scratch or if it stemmed from a lifelong interest with photography? I agree with what you say though but even after studying I'm sure there would be those who have not shared your success in being able to remain at it fulltime.

Hey mate total newbie to dslrs in 2008. started taking a serious interest when i picked up a sony cybershot some 3-4 years ago. Always had a film camera or two before that. I was a self employed (trade certificate holder) but had enough of that line of work and wanted to do something totally different. I guess getting a formal piece of paper came naturally because I was in a trade that needed one no questions.

[mikew09]

To be honest I fail to see what all the fuss is about. Like some other comments I can't say I see anyone with pro photographer as a title. For me, if someone does say they are professional photographer I first look at the website and make up my own mind as to the associated title. If you are good enough I would think the status will stick and all would flow from that pivotal point.

[bigdazzler]

Depends on the interpretation of formal training.

Im sure William is going to stumble upon this thread sooner or later

I hope so ... IM very interested in Williams input on this, and if in fact he has done any "classroom" type training along the way.

My interpretation of formal training, is a combination of theoretical/practical tuition undertaken in a classroom/field environment over a sustained period of time, resulting in a piece of paper at the end of it that is recognised. (by whom Im not sure in this case ??)

Working as an assistant in a full time role in a photography studio to me is not formal, but ironically probably (maybe ??) more useful to a budding photographer than anything else in the long run. Hands on experience counts for a lot I would say, particularly in an industry which is not regulated and there are no rules on who you can hire.

[kiwi]

I think more to the point is what being a professional means to one's own situation and by others

Conversation at a bar :

What do you do Joe ?

"Im a professional photographer" or are you ?

If you are - why ? and should you be ?

[zollo]

For a giggle:

http://www.ici.net.au/photography-course/index.htm

lol but you get a free holiday

[Kym]

For a giggle:
http://www.ici.net.au/photography-course/index.htm

At least this is free.

[kiwi]

But do you get a shiny certificate with a seal ?

[bigdazzler]

I think more to the point is what being a professional means to one's own situation and by others

Conversation at a bar :

What do you do Joe ?

"Im a professional photographer" or are you ?

If you are - why ? and should you be ?

So if Joe has been working in a studio as a gofer > assistant > junior photographer > senior photographer over a longish period of time and is now making his entire income from working as a photographer, despite never setting foot in a classroom, can Joe reasonably answer yes to the that question ?? I think he can, provided he has public liability of course

[zollo]

I hope so ... IM very interested in Williams input on this, and if in fact he has done any "classroom" type training along the way.

My interpretation of formal training, is a combination of theoretical/practical tuition undertaken in a classroom/field environment over a sustained period of time, resulting in a piece of paper at the end of it that is recognised. (by whom Im not sure in this case ??)

Working as an assistant in a full time role in a photography studio to me is not formal, but ironically probably (maybe ??) more useful to a budding photographer than anything else in the long run. Hands on experience counts for a lot I would say, particularly in an industry which is not regulated and there are no rules on who you can hire.

all true. the diploma goes a lot into the business side of it too along with exhibition and marketing (in real exhibitions - such as FotoFreo) and you do meet a lot of contacts and potential employers/clients. you do get a fair bit of real world experience too. It basically accelarates the learning curve quite well so you dont have to come on forums and ask which lens do i use for a wedding/will my d3000 suffice for a Mercedes Benz billboard shoot etc

[bigdazzler]

Absolutely. I feel that the 2 biggest advantages of formal training for someone wanting to become a full time working photographer as a career move, would be studying the business management side of things, and the ability to study full time and devote your full focus to the ultimate goal.

[zollo]

So if Joe has been working in a studio as a gofer > assistant > junior photographer > senior photographer over a longish period of time and is now making his entire income from working as a photographer, despite never setting foot in a classroom, can Joe reasonably answer yes to the that question ?? I think he can, provided he has public liability of course

I say yes too, whithin reason, and as many have pointed out - this is where your portfolio will come into play - but, how does one get a break for doing high end shoots in the first place - before you have a high end portfolio? Too much luck involved for me
I know a GM or two who dont have qualifications in photography yet their work blows me away. However they all have 20 - 30 years experience and all got their break in film photography, when it was a lot different. (apparently - wasnt around )

[Paul G]

But do you get a shiny certificate with a seal ?

I disapprove of how they've used the MEAA logo to give some form of credibility to their degree when all they are doing is using it to give an indication of some possible rates of freelance pay.

As a member of the MEAA I think this tactic is a bit ordinary on the part of the people promoting this 'degree'!

[ricktas]

I say yes too, whithin reason, and as many have pointed out - this is where your portfolio will come into play - but, how does one get a break for doing high end shoots in the first place - before you have a high end portfolio? Too much luck involved for me
I know a GM or two who dont have qualifications in photography yet their work blows me away. However they all have 20 - 30 years experience and all got their break in film photography, when it was a lot different. (apparently - wasnt around )

I think that is the key. Professionalism (in any field) can be a combination of study and experience, coupled with an outlook, attitude and approach. All of this can be taught and learned, in a variety of ways, from formal study to self taught, but there are few in any career, who combine all elements to be truly professional, in all aspects of their chosen career.

I have listed to 'professional' wedding photographers in a room together, bagging out previous clients. Naming them and talking about aspects of the day, including how fat the bride was etc. This for me, is not professional, and in fact, lost 2 photographers every ounce of respect I had for them. Looking at their work now, it is tainted by their acidic tongues. I would never recommend them to anyone, and they are just wedding photographers to me now.

[Nina]

Hi, I have a Diploma in PhotoImaging and am a full time photographer.
ALL income from photography, ABN, business name, gst, the lot.
2 years fulltime study makes you much more a professional than a hobby-ist sorry. we all know the certificate, title, letters, bachelor, is just a formality but it's how it works.
I s'pose you dont believe in the title of a G.M. (Grand Master) photographer but get your work judged alongside theirs at an exhibition and see whether they have earnt their title or not

Thanks for commenting.
I have no issue with any letters behind names, it was the arrogant mind set of a second yr student that I had the issue with and this person was not on this forum.
I have no doubt that my photos would not even come anywhere close to a photographer that has earn't the GM title.

There would be very few people who could hope to have any sort of instant, or recognisable success so early in their career I think even if they have studied. But these days with the proliferation of digital cameras and the www, more and more people think this way. A bit like people who are tone deaf (sorry to anyone who is) and think they can be an overnight rock/popstar by auditioning for a TV show. There are exceptions though!

Nina, having a look at your website and blog, you appear to be very accomplished at what you do, with some lovely work on display. Are you among the 'self-taught' brigade or have you studied before commencing a business?

For the record I am a self taught photographer that probably has taken a photo every day seriously for the last 3 years. Have 4 scrapbooks books full of tutorials in editing, business advice, marketing ideas, poses, hints advice, inspirational photos,Very passionate about photography, always have been. I practice and still practice on anyone that I can find. I can't even get happy snaps of my kids anymore they have photographers child syndrome. Joined a few forums and now is a mod on one. Posted countless photos and received endless cc on my photos and always willing to learn from it. Having people make comments on your photos from all around the world with varying amount of experience you kind of build a thick skin and learn or don't even bother. Constantly reading about photography and the business aspect of photography. How to edit photos which I see that is missed on this thread. The marketing the presentation of the final product. I have just started my journey and with 20yrs experience maybe I might feel comfortable in going for a GM title. I have a mentor, would love to be mentored in the new AIPP program they are offering however noticed that it is not being offered to NT.
I am pretty realistic about my skill level and what I can offer to the client. For example only today received a call asking if I photograph weddings. First off Bridezilla's scare me. I don't want to be a wedding photographer. If I did for example I believe there is a path to be followed into that aspect of photography and it is not joining a forum and asking what lens do they need to hire for a wedding and should they get a flash. And do a couple of selective colouring in the editing. I referred the caller on to a few respected wedding photographers providing their phone numbers.
OMG very long winded I did say passionate didn't I.