Service Seeking (photographers wanted)

[Nator]

I would do that job for $400.

1 hour travel time
3 hours shooting at the ceremony/reception
2 hours of basic PP (skin smoothing, spot removal, minor adjustments), giving about 8 photos suitable for printing and framing
Remainder of photos burned to CD
A recommendation of where to get quality prints (not BigW)

Comes to $66/hour. Better than stacking shelves or mowing lawns for pocket money!

But, this assumes that i already have the appropriate equipment, and that i'm not relying on it as a primary method of feeding my family. I'm not factoring in a whole bunch of other expenses that come with running a business. It is based on not being a full time working pro photographerm which is the category I think the majority of folks on this website fall into

[ricktas]

It is based on not being a full time working pro photographerm which is the category I think the majority of folks on this website fall into

You are completely wrong with this statement! The vast majority of AP members are not Pro's

[Watchamacallit]

As with everything, it's situational like you said (have the gear? pocket money? etc). Your post on the breakdown perfectly describes what I was talking about - the expectation management side of these "contracts/quotes" the Service Seeking provides.

For some industries they provide the setup will work fine, aka I have a sink that needs fixing - no different to calling up plumbers. Some it can be a bit murky, which I think photography is under whilst others may not take off or have a slow growth rate on these sort of models.

[Nator]

Rick,
My sentence is correct...
It is based on NOT being a full time working pro, which is most people on AP.

ie: most people on AP are NOT full time working pro's..

Not wrong, possibly misunderstood though

[ricktas]

Rick,
My sentence is correct...
It is based on NOT being a full time working pro, which is most people on AP.

ie: most people on AP are NOT full time working pro's..

Not wrong, possibly misunderstood though

Oops, sorry, misread your comment

[kiwi]

I can see how you would think that a 400 job is money in the back pocket

But I think then that you are ignoring the cost of the equipment to do the job properly, insurance, marketing etc that make doing any job profitable at the end of the day

So, add up all your actual costs, including your time and then work it out

But yes, you have 400 cash where you didn't have it yesterday

[maccaroneski]

But Brett, like me, would probably have that gear anyway even in the absence of the prospect of payment, so in one sense it's all profit...

[kiwi]

Sure, I understand all those arguments.

[Nator]

But Brett, like me, would probably have that gear anyway even in the absence of the prospect of payment, so in one sense it's all profit...

Most of us 'amateurs' would take that $400 and buy another new toy.
I would save it until i had about 4 jobs worth and buy a used Nikon 24-70 f2.8.

Then i learn more and become a better photographer with increasing (albeit slowly) better equipment.

So i ask you Kiwi, how exactly is 'the end nigh' in this situation?

Seems like a win-win for the example client above, and me if i were to do that job.
It also wouldn't affect you, as you would never have bid on that job anyway because it wouldn't pay enough.

I just really can't see why that website is such a bad idea?

[kiwi]

Because most of these jobs are worth a lot more than that advertised, and this auctioneering based mainly on low ball pricing ultimately drives down the price for all, including you, what's the next bottom line for a wedding, $200 ?

I really think if you take everything into account it's uneconomic, but that's each individuals choice

If you have the gear, and are good enough then don't undervalue your work, and if you charge it's work

[maccaroneski]

But wouldn't the "economic" argument say that the market price for that particular level of service is determined by what a willing buyer pays to an able seller in an open market?

The Internet has made the idea of "couch surfing" a reality - there are plenty of sites where you can secure accommodation for your next holiday free on somebody's couch In a house the burbs. But I'm not sure that Mr Novotel is too concerned.

Maybe the site in question is creating a market rather than cannibalising one?

[kiwi]

No, I think the market is always there and all this sort of thing does is reduce the $$$ for all involved

"I can get 10 pro wedding togs for 500 each"

Next year

"I can get 20 pro wedding togs for 300 each"

The consumer has therefore an expectation of cost, it trickles up to the medium and large jobs too

But yes it's your choice to bid, but the vast majority of those bidding aren't creating a sustainable business model and personally I believe it effects the industry that you want to be part of, or one that at least I want to

I've joined this marketplace as u like the concept of matching, I'm just exasperated on how many supposedly professional photographers (based on trading names and profiles) are bidding against each other on especially the low end wedding at low end prices

[soulman]

The consumer has therefore an expectation of cost, it trickles up to the medium and large jobs too

I think this kind of thing is only true if your only selling point is price. I run a business in a market that has seen enormous growth (many new operators) and huge price drops over the past 12 months. Our prices have come down too, in line with our costs, but we are amongst the most expensive in our market and we are busier than ever. We sell on quality and our basic message is that you get what you pay for, which we firmly believe. We are able to demonstrate our value proposition to more than enough prospective clients. We turn work away.

People who sell on price have nowhere to go but down. There are a lot of guys in our industry who are making two tenths of bugger all and who will give up eventually. A lot of them will blame the market and say it was impossible to make a living on the tiny margins and so on. Meanwhile, we will be even busier and we will remain profitable.

A certain amount of people have always wanted cheap wedding photography. I'm not a young man and I can confidently say that there is nothing new here except the technology. When I was studying photography in the 70s, people were having these kinds of discussions. I guy I studied with entered the wedding portrait field and has been highly successful for decades. He sells on the quality of his work, which is outstanding. People see his stuff and they go, "wow, I want that!"

Where does all the money go in a wedding? To the vendors who can convince the couple that they have something of value to offer. Price shoppers are often the worst possible customers.

[ving]

meh! welcome to 2010...

[maccaroneski]

The consumer has therefore an expectation of cost, it trickles up to the medium and large jobs too

Further to Soulman's point, and although I am hesitant to overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer, lets hope for the sake of the industry that the expectation of cost includes a crucial concept "I can get 10 crap pro wedding togs for $500 each, but a good one will cost what it always did".

However even there I think we come to supply and demand - surely that as the barriers to entry are reduced for the suppliers, the number of good togs will increase, and as the demand does not keep pace with the supply, the price will come down. For me that is the nub of the whole "weekend warriors devalue the industry" argument.

Heck I got married ten years ago, and I bet I could find 5 weekend warriors on this site that would do as good (if not better) a job for $1k as the guy that did it for $3k back then.

EDIT: I mean as a photographer, although judging by the way that wife turned out, I'm sure I could find as many good applicants for that job here too (and cheaper)

[zollo]

its hard to "get better" $400 bucks at a time. to get better you need to spend more time at the shoot, more time learning professional pp'ing, more time learning professional lighting techniques, more time with clients eg 'eshoots,' more time finding the next client
and then you'll get to the point where you're pulling in $400 for a week while trying to get better = financial ruin. not gonna work. but weekend warriors will never understand this. its why so many aspiring photogs fail, no business sense.

take it easy

[I @ M]

My rather simplistic view is that --

As motorists we love cheap petrol prices and will drive around the block three times to save $0.02 cents per litre.

As home owners looking to buy we love it when interest rates are down, house prices are in a slump and there is a general over supply of housing.

As photographers we have all embraced the internet and the grey market with open arms as it allows us to buy our desired equipment a bit cheaper than previously.

Is there any difference between the above scenarios and the average punter looking for a 'discount' photographer?