AIPP - new Enthusiast Membership Category

[kiwi]

Enthusiast category can not earn any income at all from photography

I'm subsequently no longer an enthusiast.

[FallingHorse]

For anyone that likes to enter their images in competitions - there are a number of 'amateur' comps that do not allow members of AIPP to submit their work to regardless of the AIPP status - Enthusist or otherwise.

[flashpixx]

Emerging member terms & conditions from the AIPP site

Specific Terms & Conditions of Membership - Emerging Members
1. You agree that you have been working as a professional photographer for less than two (2) years, either in your own professional photography business or as a professional photographer employee.

So if you are a part time or casual pro (loosely defined as earning money from photography) you can only be an emerging member for no more than 2 years. Then you must apply and meet the T&C of an Accredited Member. I think I'll stick with NPS.

[Gremlin]

So if the Pro levels in AIPP vote to not have AIPP diluted by enthusiasts, where would one or who would an "enthusiast" goto for (not sure of the terminology) guidance on becoming accredited or increasing skills to become one apart from completing courses and such? And if wishing to not be a shoot and burn 'tog making hobby money.
Reason I ask is that I am hoping to get off my butt and start taking my hobby more seriously, getting out there and learning. If the AIPP full members say no to enthusiast category wheres one to go?
I ask also as I really have no clue on the answer to this? And also this is assuming the said enthusiast has the neccessary skills to produce good work too.

[kiwi]

camera clubs ? aps ?

[kiwi]

Emerging member terms & conditions from the AIPP site



So if you are a part time or casual pro (loosely defined as earning money from photography) you can only be an emerging member for no more than 2 years. Then you must apply and meet the T&C of an Accredited Member. I think I'll stick with NPS.

i understand that this is changing

[Gremlin]

camera clubs ? aps ?

Aus Photographic Society?

[knumbnutz]

Hi,
I just joined up to AIPP and got the letter regarding "enthusiast" membership.

There are two sides to it and a balance needs to be sorted out.

The letter is very heavy handed but seems to relax and have a reasonable solution but like a lot of things in Australia, with the broadening of our horizons with the internet and global markets becoming available and such, they need to change and adapt. The photography game has swiftly changed in the last 10years and probably will not change as much ever again.

As a club/institute/society, they have to change and work out a compromise between increasing numbers of photographers and maintaining a high standard of quality in the industry which is being whittled away from all angles, like the competitions to submit photographs for free publicity...

Having said that every industry just about is under threat and the government seems to just make it harder for the legit ones by adding taxes through licences etc.
Where will it end...

In time it will balance out, but in the mean time, AIPP have some real thinking to do, hopefully they will make a great choice that will benefit both causes and keep AIPP exclusive while retaining and enticing the ametaur market to get involved, a win - win.

Cheers Neil

[Longshots]

For anyone that likes to enter their images in competitions - there are a number of 'amateur' comps that do not allow members of AIPP to submit their work to regardless of the AIPP status - Enthusist or otherwise.

As "PhotoWatchDog" I check about the T & C of 300-400 photographic competitions a year. As yet I have never come across one that does as Falling Horse says.

Yes many competitions do have categories for professional and amateur, and some offer a suggestion of what the financial cutoff is for their own determining factors (which is usually annual income of $25,000 or less) - and that's the competition organisers doing that and no single body making that decision.

Perhaps you could point me to just one competition that states this limitation ?

[Longshots]

Hi,
I just joined up to AIPP and got the letter regarding "enthusiast" membership.

There are two sides to it and a balance needs to be sorted out.

The letter is very heavy handed but seems to relax and have a reasonable solution but like a lot of things in Australia, with the broadening of our horizons with the internet and global markets becoming available and such, they need to change and adapt. The photography game has swiftly changed in the last 10years and probably will not change as much ever again.

As a club/institute/society, they have to change and work out a compromise between increasing numbers of photographers and maintaining a high standard of quality in the industry which is being whittled away from all angles, like the competitions to submit photographs for free publicity...

Having said that every industry just about is under threat and the government seems to just make it harder for the legit ones by adding taxes through licences etc.
Where will it end...

In time it will balance out, but in the mean time, AIPP have some real thinking to do, hopefully they will make a great choice that will benefit both causes and keep AIPP exclusive while retaining and enticing the ametaur market to get involved, a win - win.

Cheers Neil

Good point Neil.

As "PhotoWatchDog", which monitors, lobbies, cajoles, and when required loudly protests on behalf of all photographers at all levels the insidious and cynical use of photo competitions to "equip" some competition organisers with free image banks - giving many other fair and honest competition organisers a bad name; I'd like to thank you for drawing attention to a "problem" that has for the last decade almost gone unnoticed.

In response to your other comments though.

Let me say that the "letter" that has support from just 52 members has many inaccuracies, and while many of those who have signed this letter are what can only be described as long standing and very well respected members, unfortunately I sincerely doubt that many of those who have signed it in display of support, have simply not read the actual membership requirements for ANY category - not just Enthusiast.

If anyone reads the current membership levels and what is required to join, then a large degree of the opposition to the Enthusiast category would literally crumble away.


Can I just say that as a past National Vice President, past State President, and long term council and committee member of AIPP, that the organisation is extraordinarily democratic. Each member has the same opportunity to stand up and play a role in the organisation. You just have to stand up and offer to contribute. Its all voluntary apart from 3-5 full time employees of the organisation. There are many levels to the AIPP. And I wont bore you all with a huge explanation.

But the AIPP has not just picked this idea out of a hat, but has listened and adapted to those who take part in many different levels. The concept of Emerging member category came from many people, particularly myself. That suggestion weaved its way from the board to the Policy and Planning Committee who are formed from members all over the country, who are either State Presidents, and National Board and many other specific subject specialised committees. And after a few years of lobbying from myself and others, Emerging Membership became a reality. Exactly the same thing happened with Enthusiast category. So AIPP is changing and adapting all of the time. The main issue is that individuals arent always as informed as they think they are, (because they dont always read the details) or they are not always willing to agree to such changes. As the AIPP is an association, those changes will always be based on what the membership want. And for that to happen, the ultimate people who are given the task of managing the changes, is the AIPP's national board. Its important to stress that the 5 or 6 national board members are all voted in, following a quite stringent and proper process. Their task is to manage the AIPP, and to follow what the AIPP members ( by way of the equally democratic selection process of the Policy and Planning Committee ) request. So its quite normal for some to not agree to a change - after all just like this forum, its difficult to get everyone to agree on any one approach.

So while I'd agree with you that its time for some thinking, the reality is that it's not AIPP that needs to do the thinking, because AIPP is not a business or a company, but an association of members - it the members, they're the ones that need to do both the Reading and then the thinking, because unless they equip themselves with the correct information, any conclusion they reach without that will have no basis for a productive step forward.

And again I would stress that the current discussions against this change - which took place with plenty of advance warning (like over 12 months) - represent less than 2.5% of the total membership.

[Longshots]

Emerging member terms & conditions from the AIPP site



So if you are a part time or casual pro (loosely defined as earning money from photography) you can only be an emerging member for no more than 2 years. Then you must apply and meet the T&C of an Accredited Member. I think I'll stick with NPS.

Untrue, and not based on fact.

I do wish people would read the actual facts that are clearly and easily found on the AIPP website. In an effort to help here is the criteria for Emerging Membership of the AIPP

"Emerging membership is available to all photographers who are not yet ready to become fully accredited members. "

Its that simple - no 2 year limit. Yes it did exist - importantly PRIOR to the Enthusiast category.

Here's the link with the criteria for joining all category membership levels:

http://www.aipp.com.au/aipphome.php?cat=Join

[farmer_rob]

Untrue, and not based on fact.

I do wish people would read the actual facts that are clearly and easily found on the AIPP website. In an effort to help here is the criteria for Emerging Membership of the AIPP

"Emerging membership is available to all photographers who are not yet ready to become fully accredited members. "

Its that simple - no 2 year limit. Yes it did exist - importantly PRIOR to the Enthusiast category.

Here's the link with the criteria for joining all category membership levels:

http://www.aipp.com.au/aipphome.php?cat=Join

Sorry Longshots, but I have looked at "the facts" from the AIPP website, and it contradicts you.

The AIPP membership form states:

MEMBERSHIP TERMS AND CONDITIONS
I have read, and agreed to the AIPP membership terms and conditions at www.aipp.com.au (please write & sign you name below)

The detailed T&Cs that I can find are at the link Membership Terms & Conditions

Quoted directly from these membership T&Cs:

Specific Terms & Conditions of Membership - Emerging Members
1. You agree that you have been working as a professional photographer for less than two (2) years, either in your own professional photography business or as a professional photographer employee.

It seems to me that either the two-year limit currently exists or AIPP needs to update it's website to reflect changes to its T&Cs.

(BTW, I have an increased respect for the AIPP after reading the T&Cs - it certainly suggests an interest in professional behaviour.)

[Longshots]

Sorry Longshots, but I have looked at "the facts" from the AIPP website, and it contradicts you.

The AIPP membership form states:


The detailed T&Cs that I can find are at the link Membership Terms & Conditions

Quoted directly from these membership T&Cs:


It seems to me that either the two-year limit currently exists or AIPP needs to update it's website to reflect changes to its T&Cs.

(BTW, I have an increased respect for the AIPP after reading the T&Cs - it certainly suggests an interest in professional behaviour.)

Thank you for pointing that out.

Well I cant disagree that there is a contradiction there.

As far as I was told by the Executive Officer, the 2 year limit had been removed, which is what it states within the entry criteria, so I'll pass this on and certainly ensure that they update their T&C to reflect the change.

Well if nothing else Rob, I'm glad that you've read the T&C You might also like to know that they also have a code of ethics, which is also worthwhile having a read through.

[farmer_rob]

I also read the code of ethics. This is the sort of thing that sets the AIPP up to be an appropriate industry body, and more than just another trade group. I think professional photographers who are members of the AIPP should try to be very proactive about the value of this.

[Longshots]

I do try Rob

But again thanks for pointing out that inconsistency -I have sent a report to AIPP national office. And also thanks again re the comments about the code of ethics. Most AIPP members I know have the code of ethics displayed and on show for all clients to see. I personally believe that this code is undervalued by many in its importance to prospective clients.

[Longshots]

Hi Rob

I just reread the terms and conditions of the membership - as it currently states on the AIPP website.

And after rereading it, and the specific term and condition you originally quoted, and would say that I think I definitely didnt read your quote properly, and you have misunderstood what 2 year term was being removed.

This is a copy of that term and condition:

Specific Terms & Conditions of Membership - Emerging Members
1. You agree that you have been working as a professional photographer for less than two (2) years, either in your own professional photography business or as a professional photographer employee.

Now thats not the 2 year limit I was referring to. Let me explain that the Emerging member could only be an Emerging Member for 2 years maximum, and then they would be forced to become a full member. Its that 2 year limit that according to the AIPP's own website, as of today (because someone keeps changing parts of it, without notifying members of specific changes), no longer exists.

So it was that 2 year maximum membership as an emerging member, as opposed to what is referred to in the term.

[knumbnutz]

Hey, Longshots,
Help me out here....I'm confused.
I read and reread what youve said below, but f$%^ed if i can completely understand.

Is it- (for emerging)
You can't join if you have been a professional for more than 2years, and
You can't stay an emerging member for more than two years and must try to join full

or
You can't join if you have been a professional for more than 2years, and
You can stay an emerging member for more than two years (any length of time)

The reason i ask, like flashpixx, is that photography (at this stage) may never become fulltime (as much as i would love it to) and if i remember, that is a requisite of full member.

Also I think the train with a professional scheme is a grand idea, and hopefully one that I will participate in.

Cheers Neil

Hi Rob

I just reread the terms and conditions of the membership - as it currently states on the AIPP website.

And after rereading it, and the specific term and condition you originally quoted, and would say that I think I definitely didnt read your quote properly, and you have misunderstood what 2 year term was being removed.

This is a copy of that term and condition:


Now thats not the 2 year limit I was referring to. Let me explain that the Emerging member could only be an Emerging Member for 2 years maximum, and then they would be forced to become a full member. Its that 2 year limit that according to the AIPP's own website, as of today (because someone keeps changing parts of it, without notifying members of specific changes), no longer exists.

So it was that 2 year maximum membership as an emerging member, as opposed to what is referred to in the term.

[farmer_rob]

Hi Longshots,

I think some clarity is required from the AIPP, and it is not there at the moment. It seems that you can only become an "Emerging Member" if you have not been a "professional photographer" for more than two years. There can then be a number of interpretations as I read it:

If you are not full-time, then it appears you are not a "professional photographer" under the the terms of "accredited member" (implied, but not stated). Hence, if you are part-time, you never end up working more than 2 years as a professional photographer (and can remain an emerging member forever).

Alternatively, you can only be an emerging member if you are full-time, but have not worked for 2 years. (So part-timers need not apply.)

Or, you can only be an emerging member for 2 years maximum, then implicitly you have worked for more than two years as a professional photographer.

If the AIPP changed the qualification to:

You agree that you have been working as a full-time professional photographer for less than two (2) years, either in your own professional photography business or as a professional photographer employee; or work part-time as a professional photographer

then it would match the intentions that I think you are suggesting. (But far be it from me to second-guess the AIPP - I really am just trying to be helpful.)

[kiwi]

In my case I talked to aipp and had my membership changed to emerging and i was told that I could be emerging for as long as I want.....I was also told that the name of tye category would also probably change

....

To weekend warrior

(that last bits not true, lol)

[Longshots]

Hi Longshots,

I think some clarity is required from the AIPP, and it is not there at the moment. It seems that you can only become an "Emerging Member" if you have not been a "professional photographer" for more than two years. There can then be a number of interpretations as I read it:

If you are not full-time, then it appears you are not a "professional photographer" under the the terms of "accredited member" (implied, but not stated). Hence, if you are part-time, you never end up working more than 2 years as a professional photographer (and can remain an emerging member forever).

Alternatively, you can only be an emerging member if you are full-time, but have not worked for 2 years. (So part-timers need not apply.)

Or, you can only be an emerging member for 2 years maximum, then implicitly you have worked for more than two years as a professional photographer.

If the AIPP changed the qualification to:



then it would match the intentions that I think you are suggesting. (But far be it from me to second-guess the AIPP - I really am just trying to be helpful.)

Oh I completely agree with you that AIPP need to clarify what they're doing/wanting. And I see your comments are very helpful. And having spoken with a board member today to voice mine, and others concerns, I can assure you that they're working on that clarification and reorganisation of membership categories. In fact thats the main issue with the AIPP right now.

So I'm not - repeat not - AIPP's official voice or even an unofficial voice. I'm a member with a history of involvement with voluntary positions.

Hey, Longshots,
Help me out here....I'm confused.


or
You can't join if you have been a professional for more than 2years, and
You can stay an emerging member for more than two years (any length of time)


Cheers Neil

Back to Neils question - to clarify what I said earlier. If you want to join AIPP as an emerging member, you can, if you have not been a "professional" for more than 2 years. And this part is different. You can then stay as an Emerging Member for an unlimited time (not just for 2 years). What professional is, is always open to conjecture and interpretation.

So your second option is what the Present situation is. But AIPP are currently reviewing this and thats where all the confusion is.

So back to Robs question, there is no restriction on what part time is, and that can quite easily be interpreted as professional. And again its all being reviewed, and the more feedback you would like to offer the better. But I'm not sure if AIPP board members read this, so you might like to send constructive comments direct to the AIPP board - contact details are on the AIPP website