Are Grey Market Imports Refurbished?

[I @ M]

There is no duty on cameras. The only tax is GST which is levied at 10% at every stage, but as everyone along the way except for the poor mug at the end left with the goods gets to claim back what they paid against what is due, just the poor buyer left with the 10% tax.

While overheads are relatively high in Australia and volumes are comparatively low, this will add a bit to the cost but it won't double the cost.

The biggest problem is that pricing is largely based on what the market will bear. We have been paying high prices for many decades. Recently when the dollar went down, wholesalers increased prices (justifiably), but since our dollar bottomed, it has increased in value by more than 50%. That means prices should have dropped by 1/3rd. Have they? No.

People keep buying so there is no incentive to importers & wholesalers to lower prices.

This is incorrect. the only time there is no duty is if the item is under $1000 the following is from the customs website.

Example 3: Import of goods (other than tobacco products or alcoholic beverages) valued above $1000
AUD$
Customs value (Cval) 2000.00
Customs duty (Duty) @ 5% of Cval 100.00 (Payable)
International transport and insurance or postage (T&I) 150.00
Value of the Taxable Importation (VoTI) (Cval+Duty+T&I) 2250.00
Goods and Services Tax (GST) @ 10 per cent of the VoTI 225.00 (Payable)
Total payable Duty + GST 325.00

Keith.

Peter and Keith, the terminology may be confusing to some.

Peter, photographic equipment is mostly free from tariffs which are a totally separate form of charges than duties payable.

Keith has the correct summation regarding duties applicable to general goods.

My reference to the above duties and charges are in relation to an importer who has a registered business in Australia and imports goods on a regular basis such as Canon Aus; Nikon Aus; CR Kennedy etc. etc.
They do pay GST, customs duties and probably more fees related to importing goods than most ordinary people realise which sometimes the grey importers may not pay one or more of those charges depending on their business practices.

I am not having a go at grey importers or the prices charged by the "official" distributors, merely pointing out where the savings can come from when goods are parallel (grey) imported.
I am the same as most people, I enjoy a bargain and would very much like to see lower prices on my chosen brand items but at the same time I can see why prices are higher from same companies than others.

[Wayne]

I look at it like this;

Cheaper by some margin = buy grey market and bypass hungry Australian distributor & retailer
If warranty is needed, send it back to it's country of origin and get it repaired, the cost of freight to get a D3 from here to HK and back by global express (Aust Post courier network) was $140. It is not that much hassle sending to Asia, and even less so to send something back to B&H or Adorama in the USA.

If you saved $1000 on the purchase price, you are still way in front, and that assumes something went wrong, which is not all that likely with camera gear.

If only a couple of hundred cheaper to get it grey, then probably just buy it here, haggle hard and bite the bullet.

I'm currently looking for a 400/2.8 Nikkor, and I can say that so far Hk sellers are by a long way the cheapest, with the cheapest Australian quote so far almost $2K dearer. With global warranty on lenses, why would I buy it here and make some distributor/retailer rich. The $2K saving will buy the 1.7TC, gimbal head, lenscoat, CPL, Glass taxi, monopod and still leave change.

[Tricky]

I think it is clear cut; as much as we want an alternate.
The key issue is that Canon Australia is a separate legal entity; who were NOT in the supply chain.
This has been ruled upon in terms of consumer legislation in the past; so it is what it is legally.

Actually, as per my 40D death thread, Canon DID admit that they were liable under the Trade Practices Act with respect to my grey import camera. However, they claimed that 'electronic faults' (as opposed to 'manufacturing faults') aren't covered by the Trade Practices Act's merchantable quality provisions (they never satisfactorily explained the rational for this assertion). At that point they offered to act in good faith, without admitting that the electronic fault fell within the TPA merchantable quality provisions. In this specific situation (failed shutter, outside 12 month warranty period), I don't think it would have mattered if the stock was grey or official; they would have taken the same view of the TPA's reach.

From my understanding; even under the TPA; the manufacturer is not Canon Australia but their parent.
The legal issue spins on the direct supply chain. Canon Australia did not offer that specific item for sale.

Correct - it is parent company Canon Inc that is the manufacturer and it was them that I was going after. It just so happens that their representative in Australia is 100% subsidiary Canon Australia, so it was with them that I lodged my complaint. To be clear, my dealings wtih Canon Australia was in their capacity as manufacturer, not as the official importer (as I didn't buy the item from them). I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with the ACCC on this point and it was their advice that led me to pursue the manufacturer rather than the grey importer.

[coolie21]

Interesting to see the 'smaller market' theory trotted out to justify higher prices. In reality the elevated prices have reduced the domestic market size as the internet has allowed consumers other cheaper choices. It would be interesting to speculate what fraction of the 'true' market (Aus + grey + purchase overseas) the Australian retailers actually get.

[blackjacknz]

Peter and Keith, the terminology may be confusing to some.

Peter, photographic equipment is mostly free from tariffs which are a totally separate form of charges than duties payable.

Keith has the correct summation regarding duties applicable to general goods.

My reference to the above duties and charges are in relation to an importer who has a registered business in Australia and imports goods on a regular basis such as Canon Aus; Nikon Aus; CR Kennedy etc. etc.
They do pay GST, customs duties and probably more fees related to importing goods than most ordinary people realise which sometimes the grey importers may not pay one or more of those charges depending on their business practices.

I am not having a go at grey importers or the prices charged by the "official" distributors, merely pointing out where the savings can come from when goods are parallel (grey) imported.
I am the same as most people, I enjoy a bargain and would very much like to see lower prices on my chosen brand items but at the same time I can see why prices are higher from same companies than others.

Just to clear up the duty on buying a camera on the net and bringing it into Australia. I sent an email to customs to ask about purchasing a DSLR for $3000 from Honk Kong...and got this reply...

Hi Steve

Sorry that the link doesn't work

Your digital camera would be free of duty but subject to 10% GST.

You can find the Customs Tariff on our website under "Importing Export" the "Customs Tariff"

Kind regards,
Craig C
Senior Customs and Border Protection Officer | Customs Information and Support Centre | CE&CS
Australian Customs and Border Protection Service
Customs House, 10 Cooks River Drive, Mascot NSW 2020
P: 1300 558 099 | F: 02 8339 6713 |

[Xevious]

And yes, they may be refurbished, many many warranty or changeover bodies and lenses are resold to anyone that cares to buy a bulk lot and they in turn pass them on to the consumers via many outlets.

The emphasis is strongly on the may in that sentence, I know of two bodies that were bought as new from an Asian ebay seller but were in fact Nikon USA refurbished items and came packaged as such.

How would you tell if an item was refurbished though? Is it a sticker on the box or do you have to contact the manufacturer to find out based on the serial number?

[I @ M]

How would you tell if an item was refurbished though? It is a sticker on the box or do you have to contact the manufacturer to find out based on the serial number?

In both the cases that I know of they came in a grey box instead of the normal gold package and with the wording "Nikon reconditioned product" and a sticker detailing the model and that they were covered by a 90 day limited warranty.
Both the sellers are no longer on ebay, I guess they made their dollars and closed up "shop".

The situation with the examples that I gave are more deceptive marketing because anyone looking to buy the items would only have seen and been told the same as any of the more prominent sellers tell you on their websites.

As in most things in life, buyer beware. It just helps to go into these sorts of deals with a little bit of knowledge before hand about what may happen.

[littleblightie]

And CR Kennedy will price match Sigma lenses.

Are you sure this is still the case?

[arubaato]

My personal experience:
bought 5d2 when I was in HK for approximately AUD3000 (May 2009)
DDP price at the time was $3400 (grey importer with 1 year store warranty)
JB Hifi price at the time $4200 (Aust stock with 1 year Canon warranty)

the question would be Is the 1 year Canon warranty worth the extra $1200 for the camera. I think not.

[Kym]

Are you sure this is still the case?

Well this seems to say yes... http://www.crkennedy.com.au/v1/index.cfm?pageID=465

SIGMA AUSTRALIAN WARRANTY ON GREY IMPORTS

C.R. Kennedy & Co P/L will only undertake warranty repairs on products sourced through us. All products imported directly from overseas and resold are not covered by our warranty. This includes purchases through ebay and through grey importers such as www.camerasdirect.com.au,
www.d-d-photographics.com.au, www.DealsDirect.com.au, www.globalmediapro.com and www.photobuff.com.au.

Mark Harrison from www.camerasdirect.com.au has been directly advised by Sigma Japan that C.R. Kennedy, the only authorised Sigma agent in Australia, will not cover warranty on Sigma products bought through www.camerasdirect.com.au

We will match, through our authorised Sigma dealer network, any legitimate advertised internet price on Sigma lenses by these grey importers.
These prices do not include traditional pre-sales and after sales service normally given by your local retail store. We suggest that you research the product thoroughly before making any purchase.

[wideangle]

Getting back on topic - Thinking about it, there are probably brick and mortar shops are probably selling refurbished goods as new when someone takes back a camera or lens they return for whatever reason. I have seen bought stock put back on a shelf after it being returned in a shop.

[JM Tran]

Getting back on topic - Thinking about it, there are probably brick and mortar shops are probably selling refurbished goods as new when someone takes back a camera or lens they return for whatever reason. I have seen bought stock put back on a shelf after it being returned in a shop.

only if its a few days or up to a week depending on the store policy of the returned item. Obviously we would check it to see if its still in pristine condition - if there are any marks or noticeable faults we would return to stockist or charge customer full price. If a store returns every single product that a customer would be disatisfied with or exchange it for something else - within a few days - the store would make a big loss re-ordering all the time, and be out of business faster than Canon coming out with new ***D models

[wideangle]

Yes, but its just a case in point that you never know if you are getting a brand new camera/lens when you buy as it may have been 'used'

[I @ M]

Yes, but its just a case in point that you never know if you are getting a brand new camera/lens when you buy as it may have been 'used'

That is why Nikon pack their cameras in "open" bags and not hermetically sealed ones, they don't want you to know.

[wideangle]

I don't believe Canon pack in sealed bags either, just comes in soft plastic cloth type material by memory

[justinharwoodran]

DigitalRev are the BEST. 5 working days and arrived with DHL free postage. Saved $1000 on just 3 items. No joke. The body, the battery grip and a 50mm lens and BANG............one big fat pony in my pocket saved. Brand new all the fruit no tricks no 2nd hand junk. Support local business...........sure I'll be in next week for a cleaning cloth.

JH

[98octane]

Very interesting thread. Late last year I bought a Canon 70-200mm f4 L from B+H for 50% less than the Australian retail price. I'm very impressed with this lens and I've had no issues so far.

I now want to buy a Canon 15-85mm lens. Given some reviews suggest there are some 'bad' samples (e.g. front focussing, right focussing etc), I want to make sure I could make a call on the warranty to Canon Aust. I called Canon Aust today and asked this question explicitly - i.e. I'm buying a Canon lens online from the USA with a USA warranty, so will you honour the warranty in Australia? - and the answer was yes they will honour it. Can anyone confirm this? Any experiences on calling on warranties on grey imports from US/Asia etc?

[Bear Dale]

DigitalRev are the BEST. 5 working days and arrived with DHL free postage. Saved $1000 on just 3 items. No joke. The body, the battery grip and a 50mm lens and BANG............one big fat pony in my pocket saved. Brand new all the fruit no tricks no 2nd hand junk. Support local business...........sure I'll be in next week for a cleaning cloth.

JH

Good savings there Justin

[bigdazzler]

I called Canon Aust today and asked this question explicitly - i.e. I'm buying a Canon lens online from the USA with a USA warranty, so will you honour the warranty in Australia? - and the answer was yes they will honour it. Can anyone confirm this? Any experiences on calling on warranties on grey imports from US/Asia etc?

I dont use Canon gear but I believe this is the case. Its been discussed on here before and I recall reading that Canon will honour warranty on grey market and OS imports.