ACMP v AIPP - why 2? why join?

[Kym]

Could also lobby ap for NZ rights (jk)

There is a solution - become the 8th state of Australia!
We'll give the white paint to fix the flags as well!!

[Redgum]

Bill (Longshots), I make no apology for my remarks but clarify they are in no way personal or directed at individuals. To provoke such a response, this issue has no doubt been raised many times before and explains Rick's remark in that the organisations attract relatively few members compared with the size of the industry, particularly in Tasmania. The AFI, APA, QFC, all of which I have served at board level, experience similar rejection.
The benefits are of little significance to the majority of members who rescind their membership after a short duration and one needs to be reasonably skilled in politics to access any substantial benefit. Of course the networking in itself can be of good value but that essential only applies to members in Sydney and Melbourne.
In a professional sense photographers would be better off subscribing to business networking organisations which they can clearly identify as providing work opportunities and not having to compete with a raft of organisational members trying to access the same work.

[Shane.R]

Gee we don't need anyone to lobby about... well lets see...
Copyright?
Photographers rights?
Unethical practices in the industry?

..you sound paranoid of a big brother state. A small % of photographers belong to the groups mentioned. The rest of us have a voice. If photography in public should become sanitized, don't you think the BIG BRAND manufactures will have a fit! I'm sure they can afford lawyers that the union/lobby cannot.

..each to their own. It's your money.

[kiwi]

..you sound paranoid of a big brother state. A small % of photographers belong to the groups mentioned. The rest of us have a voice. If photography in public should become sanitized, don't you think the BIG BRAND manufactures will have a fit! I'm sure they can afford lawyers that the union/lobby cannot.

..each to their own. It's your money.

Lol, Nikon wouldn't care a rats, why should they ? What % of their sales do you think are for street photographers in Australia, 0.001% ?

Now, if big brother was to ban family birthday pictures then they'd be trouble

[Redgum]

Kiwi, I think that's what Shane was saying. Reread his post.
In respect to your stats though the street photographer (if you mean consumer) is by far their largest market. Just go to any "attraction" and look for a Canon shooter. 99 out of 100 will be consumers and that's the same worldwide.
Shane's right, if consumers stop buying Canon and Nikon they can pack up and go home. The professional market won't drive them. just look at Sony, Panasonic, JVC etc.
The power of persuasion is in numbers (consumers) not organisations.

[kiwi]

Kiwi, I think that's what Shane was saying. Reread his post.
In respect to your stats though the street photographer (if you mean consumer) is by far their largest market. Just go to any "attraction" and look for a Canon shooter. 99 out of 100 will be consumers and that's the same worldwide.
Shane's right, if consumers stop buying Canon and Nikon they can pack up and go home. The professional market won't drive them. just look at Sony, Panasonic, JVC etc.
The power of persuasion is in numbers (consumers) not organisations.

No, I have reread and think I got it the right way around

And no, I dont mean street = consumer

I mean street = taking pictures in public of say strangers, railway stations etc where all the privacy concerns are raised over and over (and over) again

Id say the vast majority of consumers take pictures of their family, holiday snaps, pets etc

[dowden photography]

Agree it happens everywhere, but get a group of 200-300 together you can chose to move from the negative group to a positive and enlightening group. But when you get a place as small as Tasmania and less than 20 AIPP members at an event, it gets harder to separate from the negativity, cause their are way less 'other' groups to go to. (hope that makes sense). And I am not having a go at the Tas AIPP Branch at all. I have got a lot out of the times I have attended their events. Just sometimes the pettiness was a bit much from some members.

Since I started photography my biggest disappointment has been the cattiness of other pro photographers. Its like being in high school sometimes.

Some are never wiling to lend a hand, teach others help with ideas and will talk behind your back like a old housewife.

[Longshots]

Since I started photography my biggest disappointment has been the cattiness of other pro photographers. Its like being in high school sometimes.

Some are never wiling to lend a hand, teach others help with ideas and will talk behind your back like a old housewife.

Odd that you think that. After 34 years in the industry, I'd have to say that I find the total opposite. The time I've witnessed the experiences you describe have always been in the camera club/amateur area.

Business is business, its not always going to be a group of huggers

I've been working now professionally for over 40 years, with a wide variety of careers, and what you describe, I've seen and witnessed by others from all of those experiences. My own personal view is that as the majority of photographers are self employed individuals, they share a common ground of survival, and the sharing of knowledge is far greater that any other career I've experienced.


Although I'd agree that in any area, it doesnt matter what trade, profession or sport you want to select, and it doesnt matter if you include professionals or amateurs, there are some who want to help and some who dont. Its that simple, its down to personal attitudes of the individuals.

As a Ex National Vice President of both AIPP and ACMP, both organisations actual reason for being is to assist each other, (ie for example read the AIPP codes of ethics).

[campo]

I think it also boils down to the approach one takes when asking for advice. Simply asking a pro to divulge everything they know/do in exchange for nothing is likely to result in the pro saying no. I guess when asking, one should consider what mutual benefit could be gained by both parties in the exchange?

I'm big on sharing but at the same time, if I was to have someone constantly asking me questions and showing little initiative to go out and learn for themselves, I think there would come a time where I would be reluctant to keep divulging...

[dowden photography]

Sometimes its just little things like camera gear they get catty over. I've seen a pro photographer move anothers gear because that was his seat last time, I've met one who won't talk to Nikon users because he think they are up-themselves.

As for never lending a hand, yes don't give all the tips away but sometimes just a little help like with a setting in a shot.

[Redgum]

Sometimes its just little things like camera gear they get catty over. I've seen a pro photographer move anothers gear because that was his seat last time, I've met one who won't talk to Nikon users because he think they are up-themselves.

As for never lending a hand, yes don't give all the tips away but sometimes just a little help like with a setting in a shot.

You know I've never struck this in 26 years in the industry. Although, I must admit it's common at just about every club meeting I've been to over 40 years.

[Longshots]

so the original question was ??

[Redgum]

so the original question was ??

What benefits does membership lead to? Pretty much covered.

[Tony B]

What benefits does membership lead to? Pretty much covered.

Covered very well. A professional association should not just be a toothless tiger or boys & girls club though. It should have ethical standards by which members are judged & lose accreditation if not complying to the agreed set of standards . In my profession I cannot obtain public liability insurance unless I am a member of the professional association & have to continuously update skills to maintain workplace standards. This to me is professionalism & not just fee earning & part of the definition of being a pro. Fees & benefits are similar to those for AIPP membership.

[TeddyTan]

wow thanks for the informative post longshots. That just made me wanna join AIPP. Peter Myers had been pestering me to join and I now see the value.

[Longshots]

Bill (Longshots), I make no apology for my remarks but clarify they are in no way personal or directed at individuals. To provoke such a response, this issue has no doubt been raised many times before and explains Rick's remark in that the organisations attract relatively few members compared with the size of the industry, particularly in Tasmania. The AFI, APA, QFC, all of which I have served at board level, experience similar rejection.
The benefits are of little significance to the majority of members who rescind their membership after a short duration and one needs to be reasonably skilled in politics to access any substantial benefit. Of course the networking in itself can be of good value but that essential only applies to members in Sydney and Melbourne.
In a professional sense photographers would be better off subscribing to business networking organisations which they can clearly identify as providing work opportunities and not having to compete with a raft of organisational members trying to access the same work.

Sorry Redgum, I missed this post, and I feel its really worth answering. And its a small point but I loathe being called Bill William is fine

Each to their own opinion, and I respect that certainly some people would agree with you. I'd just like to answer this post as I feel there are a few issues, where an opposing and alternative view point is really necessary. What I, and other members get out of joining a professional representative body is actually quite considerable, and not just the listed benefits. Those are tangible, the most important ones, are slightly harder to specify. On the first note, its not what I get out, but what I put into the collective organisation, that appeals to me. And for what its worth, everything I've ever put into the organisation, from a volunteer to AIPP board member, I can certainly ascertain its been "refunded" in droves.

Being a lone voice gains little these days. Representing an organisation on a particular pet subject, and mine has been lobbying for change to the copyright laws in the past, and now its persuading companies and organisations to produce fair and honest photographic competitions. I'm not blowing my own trumpet here, but highlighting that its not always what members can gain from being a member of an organisation, but what they can contribute as a collective to bring about changes for the better. I'm quite proud to say that on behalf of AIPP, I have made a considerable difference in how certain photographic manafacturers, and retaillers are producing photographic competitions that are fairer for all parties.

And on the second and more important note, membership of AIPP, ACMP and in the UK, BIPP and RPS, has really helped me develop my work. Without the honest, and helpful advice from other members, I wouldnt really be the photographer I am today. So the personal development assistance is again, considerable and proven.

And yes the networking can be considerable. Just on photographic assignments alone, and as an example I've recommended other AIPP members from other states, including Tasmania, who I've met and seen their work at AIPP events. And in reverse, I've been reccommended to clients by AIPP members resident in other states, and I'm quite confident that my AIPP subscriptions have been "recovered" by way of additional income from work, that I would not have normally gained.

Regarding your comment "not having to compete with a raft of organisational members trying to access the same work" - well I meet and speak with not just AIPP and ACMP members, but also plenty of those who are not members, all still work in the same area of photography as myself; and although I'm well aware that some of my colleagues and I are potentially seeking work from similar clients, the benefits of communicating - amicably - with so many other people in the same industry as myself, and helping each other with snippets of recent news is absolutely immeasurable. Chatting with other photographers, members of AIPP or not have certainly helped me with knowing who is a dodgy payer, who is a nightmare client, and who I should avoid a job from.


Oh and I'd absolutely agree with your great advice to joining other business networking to source work etc. Valuable advice indeed. But the two subjects are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[SteveB]

I have thought about joining AIPP for a number of years now, tossed that question around (is it worth it) have been to a couple of the HOTD's which were brilliant. After that in depth run down William, you have swayed me over, I will get myself joined up in the next few weeks. Thank you.

[Longshots]

happy to help - so if you have any questions at all regarding joining call me.

Its worth noting that if you are intending to got to the HOTD event, the entry fee for a member is much cheaper than a non member - so I'd put in your application to join ASAP so it goes though before the event.

[Redgum]

Oh and I'd absolutely agree with your great advice to joining other business networking to source work etc. Valuable advice indeed. But the two subjects are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Thanks William, so what you are saying is that there are no business opportunities with AIPP and ACMP, just fellowship!

[Longshots]

Thanks William, so what you are saying is that there are no business opportunities with AIPP and ACMP, just fellowship!

Redgum You're winding me up eh ? Didnt I say this in that last post - a description of the additional work I've received by way of references from other AIPP members :

And yes the networking can be considerable. Just on photographic assignments alone, and as an example I've recommended other AIPP members from other states, including Tasmania, who I've met and seen their work at AIPP events. And in reverse, I've been reccommended to clients by AIPP members resident in other states, and I'm quite confident that my AIPP subscriptions have been "recovered" by way of additional income from work, that I would not have normally gained.
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