My view is that when I am undertaking professional work I want to be as professional in all parts of my business as any that do it fulltime, and if aipp can help support that then good
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My view is that when I am undertaking professional work I want to be as professional in all parts of my business as any that do it fulltime, and if aipp can help support that then good
Darren
Gear : Nikon Goodness
Website : http://www.peakactionimages.com
Please support Precious Hearts
Constructive Critique of my images always appreciated
If you read my proposal I was not suggesting undercutting at all. My proposal was that another membership tier was created where the benefits of being a full member was reduced to create a different value proposition, there should still be a clear value in being a full member in proportion to being a "lite" member to use NPS's terminilogy
One thing thats seriously giving me the "craps" - let me be honest here, but NPS has no real relationship to this at all. Nikon Professional Service was finally brought in by Nikon - the very reason I stopped using Nikon because the support in Australia in comparison to the UK was simply woeful - to compete with Canon's existing support for professionals (CPS) who own a crap load of their gear to support their products. It has almost bugger all comparison with a Photographic Organisation or Association. AIPP is primarily run by volunteers! Its not a commercial venture like NPS! AIPP is a not-for-profit organisation run voluntarily for and by professional photographers and industry representatives who seek to set a standard of excellence within the photographic industry. Its the I've already fielded a few pms where people are talking about using the NPS membership as a form of marketing accreditation - are they serious !
So when you're talking about copyright, lobbying the government so we have freedom to hold and use our cameras, lobbying the authorities so they dont stop the public taking pictures in areas that are public areas, being the watch dog to stop the scammers (large commercial businesses, gov bodies, etc) coming up with yet more interesting ways of enticing you into giving them your beautiful images under the thinly disguised camouflage of "photographic competitions". Who does all of this? Who organises people into a strong voice ? Its generally the members of associations like AIPP and ACMP who do this. They contribute their own time and their own energy. And other than the very very rare honour of being given a life membership - we all pay our annual fee of $395, year in and year out, to help support all of these great causes. And who benefits ?
Everyone who has an interest in photography.
Its a not for profit organisation. I believe out of an organisation that represent and have more than 2500 members, there are 3 or 4 full time staff. So I can assure you that its an economically well run organisation.
Anyway, it has nothing to do with watering down or undercutting the industry Rick. I can see your concern, but the issue really is that the Australian Professional Photography has a chance to represent, lobby and support for all photographers; those that have a direct interest in professional photography, those that are working pros, and those who aspire to working pros. There are plenty of working pros earning less than the min wage in Australia. And there are a number who do very well out of it. The times of those who can depend on one career are perhaps behind us. The reality is that many have other interests and make some money from photography. Personally I would rather be a total realist and make the support and assistance of AIPP available to all who are interested. There has never been any strict interpretations of the rules regarding a min earning or a min taxabale income or a min turnover. If there were, I can assure you that there would be a very small minority of AIPP or ACMP membership.
Making it accessible to everyone - with different member categories - is something I think is worthwhile for AIPP to consider. But please dont dam them with your suggestion that AIPP want to water the entry requirements down.
Its a good time to ask AIPP to consider a different tier structure. Maybe they will. Personally I dont think they should, as all members get the same type of support, and to be honest new emerging members need the greatest level of admin support. Which is why I say this has nothing to attempt to relate it to NPS - its completely different.
Last edited by Longshots; 16-12-2009 at 5:23pm.
The point that I was trying to make re NPS was not to compare the two organisations from a delivery or structural point of view. But only to compare that they introduced a new membership tier called "lite" a couple of years ago to bring the part time Nikon shooters into their "organisation" and did so by inferring some benefits but not nearly as many as being a NPS "full" member. It feels good to be part of the NPS scheme, even though to me it's really just a membership card and a couple of free sensor cleans a year. It's a very common business practice. It's far harder to get a new client than retain or upgrade an existing one.
It's really up to AIPP obviously whether they want to broaden their base by introducing such a scheme, but, I'll be so bold to say that once a new member is attracted into AIPP at an easier to justify level that once they understand AIPP and the benefits of being a full member it would be far easier to convert them into a full member than it is now by attracting them on that basis to begin with. I'm only using me as an example. Call it a bait and switch tactic if you like, but done ethically of course.
Anyhow, I've made a suggestion, it might float or sink, but it's been interesting to discuss.
Look I think theres nothing wrong with making suggestions. In fact now is probably a very good time to make them. AIPP have always been good listeners, even if its an issue of the nature of the beast that putting a change into practice, can actually take some time.
I was I admit ranting over NPS - because I think its unnecessary distraction. I dont see much point in referrring the apple to the orange myself.
Stick to what you want and why, and I'm confident that it will be read and heard. And I can assure you that its being read already
AIPP have always evolved and adapted, they will I'm sure listen with interest.
I think the term professional should perhaps e defined. I believe that the AIPP's definition is something along the lines: that to be considered a pro, you are working full time or at least making 90% of your income from photographic work.
if you are undertaking pro work on the weekends that's Great! but it doesn't not mean however that you are working as a pro photographer. It has nothing to do with skill or talent, just the fact it is or isn't what you do for a living.
yes. What the AIPP does benefits all photographers. members or not. So why complain, about whether you can be an accredited member?!
If you are looking for a bodies or an association that is cheaper because that's what the membership means to you then , perhaps don't join one. You should join a group because of the ideals and the support you have for them as it has for you. At the end of the day, its all like a collective. The Organisation can only give what its members get. If its isn't pro members then it can't supply professionals with the experience and advice they need.
However, Check out NAVA ( national association for visual artists0 they support photographers as well, and aren't caught up on your "professional" status last time i checked. They are cheaper and offer public liability insurance with their membership they have great publications and books that list what they believe should be the award rates for photographer, jewelers, retouchers etc. They can help you on how to price work for exhibitions and have this great book, that lists all the art and photographic prizes and competitions for the year in Australia. I haven't checked it out for a couple of years, also they are the ones responsible for getting artists the right to claim certain "expenses" on tax even whist holding other normal jobs and have pushed for royalty laws to be changed in Australia.
Check it.
http://www.visualarts.net.au/
I would disagree with you Ziggy. First of all AIPP do not have the definition you state. Their current definition available on their website is:
"Full Accredited Membership is open to individuals who are currently employed as professional photographers who have worked in the industry for a minimum of two years or who have successfully completed a minimum two years full time professional photography course."
Working in the industry can simply mean shooting at the weekends.
They are apparently discussing this same subject at the moment, so I trust someone up top is taking this topic in
I would also disagree on the issue of differentiating between what you do at the weekends and what you do during the week. I can assure you that makes no difference to the ATO, they want a cut of anything you earn, its that simple.
In this climate, many people tend to have multiple careers and variety of income streams derived from totally different areas of working.
I would completely agree with you on the AIPP benefitting all photographers - and your entire following well written paragraph.
In my simplistic view world - if you sell your images, then you are a professional and if you dont then you are an amateur. Plenty of forum space is taken up with the old chestnut of "what is a professional ?" The issue of whether someone produces a limited amount of turnover - which was my suggestion for Canon's photo competitions some years ago and has been adopted by many, of an annual income - gross income of a max of $25,000, was introduced to guide people into the difference between professional and amateurs.
Last edited by Longshots; 17-12-2009 at 5:14pm.
oh, and based on the current AP member survey, admittedly only 54 responses, 64% of those here are charging for their work
Threadstarter
It may be true (in a general sense) that:Amateur photographers make money from photography, Professional photographers struggle make a living from photography
If you look at the Micro stock image sites, redbubble and the like; the income sports togs get from magazines compared with 10 years ago, etc. I think the above has some merit.
Other than wedding's and some commercial work it is a difficult profession; compared with other professions.
It's universal. Happens all around the globe. Creatives are insecure by nature and tall poppy cutting is rampant.Originally Posted by ricktas
I'm a full accredited AIPP member, but to be honest, I'm not sure I can measure the value very highly for myself.
Agree it happens everywhere, but get a group of 200-300 together you can chose to move from the negative group to a positive and enlightening group. But when you get a place as small as Tasmania and less than 20 AIPP members at an event, it gets harder to separate from the negativity, cause their are way less 'other' groups to go to. (hope that makes sense). And I am not having a go at the Tas AIPP Branch at all. I have got a lot out of the times I have attended their events. Just sometimes the pettiness was a bit much from some members.
"It is one thing to make a picture of what a person looks like, it is another thing to make a portrait of who they are" - Paul Caponigro
Constructive Critique of my photographs is always appreciated
Nikon, etc!
RICK
My Photography
I couldn't agree more and personally I think most professional bodies are a "sham" and in reality provide very few tangible benefits.
Photojournalist | Filmmaker | Writer | National Geographic | Royal Geographic
D3x and other gear.
Rick, I think its fair to say that no matter what organisation, company, association or group you belong to, there is always going to be some negative people who seemingly enjoy being negative with back biting comments about others. Seems thats a consistent, no matter what you refer to. It all matters only if you allow yourself to be part of or drawn into that style pf pettiness.
Redgum, we can all share our own personal opinions, but after nearly two decades of serious involvement and voluntary contributions with ACMP and AIPP, I take your description of a sham to be offensive. I have my own personal opinion on describing the thousands of people who support and contribute to the overall improvement of the photographic community, as a sham. That IMHO is disrespecting the efforts of all those people,and is disgracefully ill informed. Disgraceful; as the information is easily accessible, proving that both associations clearly have produced some significant changes to laws for the benefit of ALL photographers - members or NOT.
Sure hold an opinion that for you its not worth it, because as its clear you would only want "tangible benefits". But please dont use words generally reserved for a criminal act. The many thousand who like me have given their time and energy to do everything from producing a serious change for better in the Copyright Act, to the - most relevant in your case - cause to keep restrictions to a min for commercial photography in National Park, would certainly feel aggrieved for an individual to be describing those efforts as a sham.
I have been thinking of joining the AIPP as an emerging member for about 6 mths and probably will in the New Year. I am reticent a little due to the fact that i live in regional NSW and therefore the benefits of networking and courses maybe less due to the expense and in time involved as everything seems to be very Sydney centric as far as NSW is concerned.
However i will probably join for the 2 years and then i can make a judgement as to worth.
Continuing with my response to being described as part of a "sham", and responding further to the statement of "few tangible benefits" regarding the original question of "Why join"
A demonstration of the benefits of Full membership - and the associated REAL benefits:
$395 for full membership annual from 1st Jan to 31st Dec
Ok lets do some sums here.
First of all the magazines:
* Four issues of Better Photography value $43.80
* Four issues of Better Digital value $59.80
* Ten issues of The Working Pro value $150
* Fortnightly issues of National Enewsletter
* 30% Discount on AdNews, Australian Creative and Capture Magazines
* 30% discount on Photo Review Print Edition & free access to online Interactive Edition
* AIPP Member discounts with Flight Centre - click HERE to find out
So already the first 3 lines total $ 253.60 - not including the discounts available on the last 3 line.
Including the value of the Enewsletter - which BTW I have just received a job from after following an advert in that newsletter.
Where's the "sham"?
Without any argument thats a true $253.60 cost if you were to purchase those magazines.
And further
Contracts - ALL Members
* Free access to contracts, releases and guidelines:
* Commercial Contract
* Portrait Contract
* Wedding Contract
* Variation to Quote
* Model Release
* Negative Release
* Pocket Release
* Property Release
* Talent Release
* Terms & conditions of submission and reproduction of pictures
* Suggested Guidelines for Negotiating Additional Usage
* Reproduction Indemnity Agreement
* Glamour & Boudoir Guidelines
* Suggested Terms of Trade for Wedding Assignments
* Keeping Your Client Happy
* About Non-Industry Competitions
Value on that ? Well some similar contracts are available in Australia from commercial organisations and each contract, or information paper can cost more than $50. As these contracts and information papers have been produced with proper legal advice, the small cost of anyone of these when used as a basis for your business is immeasurable.
So how are any of these contracts are a "Sham". Considering that many of the topics covered are also part of the most asked questions on internet forums, I would be quite happy to say that this is an important tangible benefit.
Continuing with the benefits:
AIPP APPA Awards Photographic Book
* One copy of the AIPP Annual Awards book value $99 (Full Accredited / Trade Affiliate / Registered Subscriber*)
Definitely a huge, beautifully produced book. If produced and sold commercially be this I'm sure would valued at a great deal more.
But lets stick to the value of $99, as I wouldnt want to be seen as a "sham"
ok real dollar value annual benefit not including the contracts and information area now totals $352.60
Continuing with more tangible benefits:
Merchant Service Deals - ALL members
* 1.028% Merchant service Fee on credit card transactions
* 0.17% Merchant service fee on EFTPOS transactions
These should be checked, as I know that the merchant services deals have recently been improved. I used to have a merchant facility which I didnt have through AIPP, because at the time they did not have this deal available, and my fees were a great deal higher than the ones made possible with the deal through AIPP
So I'm not going to list this. But I can assure you that I would have saved thousands if I'd had the AIPP facility instead of the NAB one I had some time ago.
Again I'll continue to alleviate my annoyance by giving AP members some facts, to dispel the unjustified comment of it being a "sham"
Insurance - ALL Members
* Special Photographer’s Insurance policies (equipment & public liability) with AON and AIS insurance - ALL Members
I recently moved insurers and I paid my insurance bill, and the following year received the annual quote. I realised that I'd failed to tell them of my AIPP membership, and that year received a 10% reduction, and was sent a new quote.
Thats real tangible benefit and to me that saving was $278.
However I dont feel the need to add that to the total as it will be obviously different to all. It will mean a very real benefit though.
I make no apology in continuing on with the lengthy benefits to respond to the claim thar there are no tangible benefits. Have you the reader made your own conclusion already ?
ok real dollar value annual benefit not including the contracts and information or the merchant facility, the insurance savings still totals $352.60
Ah the thorny one - another benefit which is hard to place a value on:
Legal - ALL Members
* Specialised business & copyright legal advice
So I wont - to me its obvious considering how many times this topic comes up on forums. But again with the legal world, ulimately advice is one thing, and it comes down to what your own paid legal will say. So another reason not to include it.
On to another big one.
Promotion
* Listing in the Find A Photographer section of the AIPP website - Full & Emerging only
* Online gallery as part of your Find A Photographer listing on the AIPP website, where you can showcase nine of your images and write a short bio - Full only
* Access to the upload seven of your images as part of Adobe’s website - Full only
* Use of AIPP logo to promote individual work - Full & Trade Affiliate only
* Use of AIPP Accredited Photographer logo - Full only
* AIPP Membership certificate - Full & Trade only
* Official AIPP ID card & lanyard – very useful when photographing at public gatherings - ALL members
* APPA Gold-award winners images part of AIPP Canon APPA Travelling Exhibition (travels around Australia for 12 months)
* APPA Silver-award winners and above published in prestigious AIPP Canon APPA Awards Book
Well I've received and still receive plenty of enquiries from prospective clients searching for a photographer via AIPP's, and ACMP's database. Again its immeasurable.
So I suppose that could certainly agree that this could be seen as one of the intangible benefits.
But if you want to see more of those; there are a lot more of those:
Awards
* AIPP Canon Australia Professional Photography Awards (APPA’s) with prizes of over $56,000
* APPA Gold-award winners in AIPP Canon APPA Travelling Exhibition (travels around Australia for 12 months)
* APPA Silver-award winners and above published in prestigious AIPP Canon APPA Awards Book
* AIPP State Professional Photographer of the Year Awards (Victoria has prizes of over $14,000) to be won.
* Opportunity to earn State and National Print Awards, which can be a valuable tool for advertising your skills and successes
Networking & Community - ALL Members
* State meetings where you can learn new and improve current skills
* Opportunity to network with other photographers
* Gaining knowledge through workshops and sharing
* Opportunity to have work critiqued by acclaimed professionals
* Business and emotional support
Professional Development / Events
* Notification via email of AIPP and Industry seminars, workshops, conventions and competitions
* Discounted entry into these events
* Ability to vote; serve on AIPP committees and accrue award points towards an Associate or Master Honours qualification - Full only
* Friendship, friendship, friendship.
So to summarise, and to respond to the claim of " most professional bodies are a "sham" and in reality provide very few tangible benefits " -and noting that the original question was "Why join AIPP or ACMP, so I am specifically choosing to list AIPP benefits and respond to the IMHO, offensive use of the word "sham"
The real dollar value annual benefit not including:
the contracts and information,
the merchant facility,
the insurance savings,
the legal advice,
the promotion and marketing,
the awards,
the networking,
the professional development opportunities,
and a point not mentioned,
but the price saved on individual tickets to AIPP produced seminars and workshops by being an AIPP member (events are generally open to all, but cost more if you're not an AIPP member) still totals $352.60
And if you do nothing other than being a member, or do what many do and take part, get involved, lead topics to lobbying federal and state governments into recognising the rights of the photographer, and grow immeasurably by being involved with your peers a colleagues, then all of this is going to cost you $395 less the real benefits of $352.60 which is in theory leaving you with a real balance of $42.40 to put towards all of those intangible benefits.
IMHO thats not just good value, but good business sense. Because if you are charging for your work, and you are declaring the income, I'm reasonably confident (as I'm not a trained accountant) that the cost of membership of a trade association is a 100% taxable deduction.
Thats sweet to me - and thats why I pay membership to 5 professional associations totalling over $2000 annually, and I get back everything.
Clearly everyone has their own opinion. Mine is IMHO frankly, based on logic, fact and a keen sense of good business choices.
Last edited by Longshots; 18-12-2009 at 9:45am.
Well said
I think I'm with Jeff re giving the emerging member thing a go in the new year
Joining AIPP when I get paid from my last job, I'm a student who gets paid work so its only like $75 a year for me, well worth it because I'm sure picking up extra work through the site would be easier.
It's the general public who buy photo's, and "what" appeals to them. Who needs a lobby.
Olympus E-30 upgrade pointing @ you
50mm
11-22mm
FL-36 [flash]
Threadstarter
Gee we don't need anyone to lobby about... well lets see...
Copyright?
Photographers rights?
Unethical practices in the industry?
regards, Kym Gallery Honest & Direct Constructive Critique Appreciated! ©
Digital & film, Bits of glass covering 10mm to 500mm, and other stuff
Could also lobby ap for NZ rights
(jk)
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