How to deal with Police when out photographing (& Photographers Rights)

[Scotty72]

The thing is, though, that I believe it is actually illegal to take pictures on public transport in certain cities, without prior permission. You have to remember that train stations and the like are not Public spaces, so they can apply terms and conditions such as that.

Just reading your post, while it may feel confronting to you, they asked you to stop, you told them you weren't and you both went on your merry way.

Not sure if I would really call that harassment.

BUT that being said, I wonder if they ever tell anyone to stop taking pictures using mobiles?

I know Victoria is a 'shoot first, ask questions later' kinda state :P
SA, no idea!

but in NSW at least...
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(http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php)


What about railway stations?
This is a different story for they are public space (even if they are not, technically speaking, "public land"). So provided you don't make a nuisance of yourself, you should be fine. In 2004 the NSW Minister for Transport Services spelled it out (at NSW Legislative Council Hansard, 24 Feb 2004, p.6394, art.53):

It is not an offence to take a photograph on a train or at a station.

Transit officers are required to detect graffiti and other offences as they occur, as well as protecting State Rail property from vandalism. I am advised taking photographs of graffiti may indicate a connection between the person and the graffiti they are photographing, as graffiti offenders often photograph their work. See also the earlier Q&A in NSW Legislative Council Hansard, 12 Nov 2003, p.4731, art.22.

In 2006 there was a lengthy discussion about this issue at Railpage Australia. As many advised, apply a little common sense. If you are going to linger and take formal photographs (eg. using a tripod or for publication), then contact the Station Master first. For casual hand-held photography however — don't ask, shoot.

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Scotty

[hoffy]

Very good. You have done your research.

I have a query in to the local authorities here to see what they have to say.

[ricktas]

Re your train station incident. How about rather than giving them attitude as you stated, you calmly and politely discussed with them the legalities etc. Sorry, but giving attitude back to the cops doesn't achieve anything for photographers in the long term

As soon as they tell you to move along, and you don't, no matter whether your previous argument was about photography or any other issue, you are breaking the law. Disobeying the direction of a Police Officer.

I completely disagree with your approach above Scotty, by giving them attitude back, you now have three more police officers who will find photographers irritating. A calm, intelligent discussion would have been a much better approach.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I agree with the poster who argued that the public is not required to pass any attitude test to please cops. We are not their pets. In fact, as police officers, they should be the ones examined as their behaviour should be of a much higher standard.

Courtesy is a two way street. People who immediately put their hackles up whenever a cop is around are just as bad as the cops that abuse their power.

Cops are going to react poorly to people who show them attitude - and I don't blame them.

Of course, the public is going to react badly when faced with an arrogant, power hungry copper, and that's also understandable.

I just don't understand why people have an attitude towards cops.

As for your incident - it may have been a misunderstanding of the law on their part - after all, how many laws do they have to deal with? Not justifying an attitude if they showed one, but a mistake may have been understandable.

[Scotty72]

Oh well.

Had the circumstances been different... maybe.

However, the police, with no reason to suspect a thing gave a direction.

The law states the you must obey a 'reasonable' direction. As no one had complained and I wasn't breaking any law, I felt they were being unreasonable.

I suspect that these guys have always been (and will always be) anti photographer.

As a teacher, if I unreasonably approach my students and tell them to stop doing something that is totally legit, they will laugh at me and the principal will tell me to pull my head in.

I would never do that, as it would be an abuse of power.

If cop are being a abusive bullies then, they deserve no respect. In fact, bullies must be challenged.

Remember, they approached me. They did not say, "Hey, what are you doing? You're not bugging anyone are you?"

In which case, I would have probably would have said, "Na, just practising with the new camera. No problem, is there?"

They chose to come at me like bullies. I also had a train to catch.

Scotty

[CapnBloodbeard]

Are you taking offence because they acted like arrogant pricks? Or simply because they told you to stop photographing? There was something in their manner that was clearly rude?

[CapnBloodbeard]

Geez, and cops wonder why they have so little respect.

I'm going to arrest you then make up something, anything to justify my stupid decision.

Glad cops aren't surgeons; I can hear the train of thought, "I'll remove a kidney, then think of a reason for doing so tomorrow."

Scotty

He's already defended himself; you've misinterpreted what he said

You missed my point. I'm talking about myself personally, not others. In the split second something happens on the street trust me YOU KNOW that the law is broken and that an arrest is LAWFUL but I'm not always 100% ready to quote the act, section and exact wording of the charge. And not only that it is only RARELY that things happen like that.
I'm pretty sure I'm repeating myself here - I thought it was clear in my original post.

This thread was made in good faith. It would only go to the media if one of the members here sent it, and that is not going to happen.

[Scotty72]

Are you taking offence because they acted like arrogant pricks? Or simply because they told you to stop photographing? There was something in their manner that was clearly rude?

Both

[NickMonk]

Thanks for saying your bit Scotty72 but I can quite clearly see why you had issues.

[Scotty72]

One of the talk-back stations today (in Sydney) took a bunch of calls about police harassing people for being in public.

Two 'highlights', as presented by the callers

Call 1. A sales rep, felt like eating his lunch. Rather than eating his sanga whilst driving one handed, he pulled into the carpark of the local park. Cops turned up and asked him ro move on as there are kids about. He produced ID, cops then still advised him to move on - despite the fact they could have easily checked on the police database to see if he was on a list.

Call 2. A lady, last week, was 'ordered', by police, to not take pictures of her own kids because she was near a primary school. Problem here was she was on her own front lawn. So, some police think they have the right to order you to not photograph your own kids in your own house. How dare they.

There were others...

Nick, I hope this makes it a little more clear why some people (incl I) have issues with police trampling on our civil liberties in order to 'save the children'.

Scotty

[Paper_Mache_Man]

lol...

Just had a funny experience on campus (where I work, we lease a building).

I was going for a walk and brought my camera with me. It's the UWS Ag college so not much to see but it is pretty spread out, has lots of scenery and a fair few animals about. Anyway, I'm walking around taking photos and I see a guy (prob security) walking towards me. I didn't realise it though, I thought he was just walking somewhere in my direction, he didn't 'look' at me.

So anyway, I realise the time and decide I need to hurry back. I take a short cut behind some uni buildings off the path. Then I hear all this shouting coming from the building, take a look and try and see into the window but can't see anyone so keep walking.

Then I hear all this yelling behind me 'Oi you!' etc. I turn around and there are 3 security guards (again I assume) and I'm assuming a grounds manager behind me. They're practically running after me lol.

I'm just thinking...***. They go:
'are you alright?'
'Err...yeah, fine, thanks!'
'Oh ok because you look lost'
'No I'm just going for a walk...back to work actually...I work in blah blah'
'Oh ok then'

They all turn and leave.

I had a good chuckle on my way back. Somehow I don't think they'd be quite so concerned about me had I not had an SLR on me. The funny thing is they didn't even ask me about the camera....whaaaa?

[zollo]

lol...

Just had a funny experience on campus (where I work, we lease a building).

I was going for a walk and brought my camera with me. It's the UWS Ag college so not much to see but it is pretty spread out, has lots of scenery and a fair few animals about. Anyway, I'm walking around taking photos and I see a guy (prob security) walking towards me. I didn't realise it though, I thought he was just walking somewhere in my direction, he didn't 'look' at me.

So anyway, I realise the time and decide I need to hurry back. I take a short cut behind some uni buildings off the path. Then I hear all this shouting coming from the building, take a look and try and see into the window but can't see anyone so keep walking.

Then I hear all this yelling behind me 'Oi you!' etc. I turn around and there are 3 security guards (again I assume) and I'm assuming a grounds manager behind me. They're practically running after me lol.

I'm just thinking...***. They go:
'are you alright?'
'Err...yeah, fine, thanks!'
'Oh ok because you look lost'
'No I'm just going for a walk...back to work actually...I work in blah blah'
'Oh ok then'

They all turn and leave.

I had a good chuckle on my way back. Somehow I don't think they'd be quite so concerned about me had I not had an SLR on me. The funny thing is they didn't even ask me about the camera....whaaaa?

G'day. I work security at a uni here in perth. What happened to you is not really uncommon. With all the cases of nasty chemicals being thrown, bashings and worse going on around universities for some reason lately (directed a lot at international students, but not all) security has been stepped up a lot. If you look like someone who is loitering or suspicious, we will tell you to move along. Sounds like the guard did the right thing by calling back-up also. So in this instance I doubt it was because of your camera and you weren't being singled out. Dont take it personally just tell them what you are actually doing and you should be fine. If they do tell you to move on, then on university ground, you dont really have a choice.

[Scotty72]

If they do tell you to move on, then on university ground, you dont really have a choice.

If you're entitled to be there: ie you are a worker or student on the campus, and you are not in an enclosed area, then you're also entitled to ignore them.

Scotty

[zollo]

If you're entitled to be there: ie you are a worker or student on the campus, and you are not in an enclosed area, then you're also entitled to ignore them.

Scotty

lol. Yes, show us a student card and you will be fine. Show us a staff card and you will be fine. All workers/visitors must/will have a pass saying so. If you dont, like I say, move along. It is security's right at any time of day or night to ask for these passes. It is your right to show us or if you refuse, be shown the door. Conditions of entry and the document you sign says so. Dont like it? Dont enter the uni.

cheers

[Scotty72]

That is fair enough, they are enclosed lands.

The exception is a member of the public with a legitimate reason to be there also.

Eg, I might be there for a conference etc... in my lunch break decide to go for a stroll.

It always amazes me how people often assume the worst of people carrying bulky DSLR's. That is just dopey; surely someone up to no good would be carrying the smallest, most concellable thing they can - not carrying a beacon of obviousness.

Wish people would remember that - passing on those vibes to you :P

Scotty

[Scotty72]

Oh, and by the way, not all conferences give out passes.

Just recently, I attended a two-day conference at UNSW, no passes, lanyards etc.

Maybe, they know Sydney people are all well intentioned

Scotty

[zollo]

I am not anti dslr at all, infact, the uni i work at is the epicentre of photography and media learning. We have a lot of photography students (myself included) and teachers as well as after hours short courses. Never once have i had bad altercations with anyone with a dslr. Thats not something i could say about crooks who have figured out that a lot of camera gear + lot of students studying with said gear = easy targets, big pay. I have personally saved at least 2 people a lot of money/a hardcore flogging by doing my job. Sometimes at night, telling a photographer to move on is more for their benefit than mine in particular. And the point that not everyone gets a pass is true - but security is made well aware of who is visiting at what time and where - plus, we aint all meatheads

cheers

[ving]

If you're entitled to be there: ie you are a worker or student on the campus, and you are not in an enclosed area, then you're also entitled to ignore them.

Scotty

gee i hope kyou dont have a problem with librarians too

[Scotty72]

gee i hope kyou dont have a problem with librarians too

Well, I was actually thrown out of my university library once (with about 4 or 5 others) cause we were caught smuggling pizzas into one of the study areas...

Outrageous... :P

But, did you ever see that series on the ABC a couple of years back? Librarians? Funny stuff, and true.... Some of the teacher / librarians I have known.... omg!

Scotty

[Scotty72]

I am not anti dslr at all, infact, the uni i work at is the epicentre of photography and media learning. We have a lot of photography students (myself included) and teachers as well as after hours short courses. Never once have i had bad altercations with anyone with a dslr. Thats not something i could say about crooks who have figured out that a lot of camera gear + lot of students studying with said gear = easy targets, big pay. I have personally saved at least 2 people a lot of money/a hardcore flogging by doing my job. Sometimes at night, telling a photographer to move on is more for their benefit than mine in particular. And the point that not everyone gets a pass is true - but security is made well aware of who is visiting at what time and where - plus, we aint all meatheads

cheers

Weren't suggesting security guards all were meatheads... The idiots who dream up restrictions and the phony justifications usually are, but not those forced to impliment them.

My favourite is... "For your convenience, City Rail no longer provides rubbish bins on trains or platforms. Please take your rubbish with you." - Yes Shitty Rail, very convenient that.

Scotty