I also advocate privacy, but a person in a public place has no right to, nor reasonable expectation of, privacy.Originally Posted by MarkW
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I also advocate privacy, but a person in a public place has no right to, nor reasonable expectation of, privacy.
So your telling me that your hobby has more legal right to exist than my right to reasonable privacy?
I'm not advocating a blanket ban but one of being able to opt out for future images.
For example, you take my photo as part of a street scene. As I have no idea of what you intend to do with that image, I respectively ask you to take no more images containing me. For all I know you may decide to manipulate the image then publish it on the web for the amusment of thousands. I wouldn't want that and whilst I dont have this right at this point in time, I believe I should have. The current laws only prohibit commercial photography which even there seems to be ignored.
If I don't want to be in your photography then why should I, in fact I believe you may even have the right to harrass me with your photography and I can't do anything about it. There has to be a reasonable limit and a right to privacy after the fact would seem to me to be acceptable.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
What I am challenging is the notion of "privacy" in a public place.
How, both legally and practically, can you declare and enforce your own privacy (which legally does not exist) if you're walking around the Sydney Harbour foreshore?
If you see a person photographing you specifically in public (ie, you are the subject, rather than incidentally in the frame), then you're within your rights to ask that photographer to cease photographing you.
No reasonable photographer would refuse that request. That comes down to simple courtesy, not law. Legally, that photographer does not have to comply with your wish.
If you happen to be in a scene someone is photographing, then it is not reasonable for you to ask or demand that the photographer stop shooting.
If you don't want to be photographed, don't go out in public.
BTW, if you're walking around many public places, you're being photographed and filmed all the time by street safety/surveillance cameras, and you have even less of an idea of, or control over, what happens with those images and who has access to them.
That opens up a whole set of legal and practical challenges as to how that level of "protection" could exist or be enforced.
There are laws about passing off. You cannot use an image of someone for advertising or endorsement purposes without a signed model release.
The fact that some people ignore those laws is another matter.
For any law that exists, there'll be people who will break it, and the fact that some law exists does not guarantee you 100% protection from the behaviour that law prohibits.
There's a difference between perfectly legitimate photography of human subjects in a public place, and specifically harassing someone with a camera. Harassment would be covered by existing laws which aren't specific to photography.
If I am taking a photo of a street scene and you happen to be in the frame and notice it, then I suggest you get out of the frame if you don't want to be photographed.
If you go to tourist-laden places like the Sydney Opera House, Darling Harbour et al., there's a very good chance you will appear in some tourist's photo.
Last edited by Xenedis; 23-02-2010 at 8:43pm.
Thanks for the links, some interesting reading!! There is a discussion going on at the moment about a photographer setting up a photo and then someone taking a photo over their shoulder and then selling the image.
It will be intersting to see where the photographers rights with regard to this issue are upheld in these documents, I think it's just plain polite not to do it, but apparently it still happens.
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I will add something here ,I was asked to take photos of a friends daughter at a pony club where there was a photographer taking photos to sell.I was approached by some woman yelling at me to leave the grounds as there was an official tog and i was not aloud to take photos .I explained I was taking photos for a friend .The woman was so nasty she even started on my daughter who was there with me when I went to let my friend know I was told to leave the grounds.My daughter told me the woman would not leave her alone yelling at her ...funny thing my daughter had a can of drink in her hand she told the woman to get out of her face so many times... well to cut it short the woman wore the can of drink in her face, not the can just the drink...anyway we left the ground ...I had no intension in selling the photos ..can this be done .Also if I am booked to do a stud shoot at a horse show and there is a official tog there is there a law against me taking photos there ?
Threadstarter
I assume the pony club is on private land? If so, you need the permission of the land owner (or leaser) to take photos on their land. Even if your friend who wanted the photos taken was a member of the pony club, she doesn't have the authority to give you permission. You should have found out who was in charge and asked permission first.
But... The reaction of the other woman is extreme and she deserved the drink in her face. If she had approached you in a polite and concerned manner, questioning what you were doing, rather than the yelling and ranting you describe, the conversation would probably have divulged what I said in my first paragraph. Some people just deserve an attitude adjustment, and she was sitting first in the queue.
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Pony Clubs are held on council grounds not private ground so isnt that public place.There was also other ppl taking photos that same day but they were not asked to leave ...would it be because of the look of my camera do you think...
Threadstarter
Depends on the contract for use between the Council and the Pony Club. The only way you will find out is to talk to the Council and the person who runs the pony club (be that the President of a committee or a single person who instigated the club). Definitely a DSLR will attract more attention than a point and shoot
Ok thanks for that info...I will do that ASAP...
The ranting women was wrong.
However, I am often contracted as the "official" photographer for events, and as part of my arrangement I make it absolutely clear that I am the only one that will be selling photos to the participants.
If there happens to be anopther photographer there (outside of an obvious parent with a P&S) I will definately ask the event organiser to go and find out what that person is doing.
The reason ? Well, it's happened to me that Ive worked a whole event, and hardly made a sale as good ole Uncle Bob has taken photos and freely handed out CD's for free.
Darren
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Now I am just guessing here, but the ranting woman.
Was she the wife of the official photographer ??
Yes you need permission, but not just anybody can really ask you to leave, that again would be the role of the event organiser.
I was not taking the photos to sell them it was for a long time friend of her daughter ...I often go to horse events to take photos for practice but if I have them on display and the person who owns the horse spots their horse and likes the photo and wants to buy it well i sell it to them as not everyone takes the same photos and ppl get sick of the same old shots with the horse standing in the same way ...I have been told that at a horse event if you are not in the arena where the show is no one can stop you from taking photos... am I right ...Ok so what is a freelance photographer ?The more info on this the better ...
The point is that the official photographer is the one that invests time and money into estbalishing a reputation, link with the club, the website, etc etc etc etc.....
So, yes you are doing exactly what I will not put up with - taking pics and selling to participants. I would be having you chucked out too.
Re the legality of you taking photos - if it's a public event on public land do what you want - but I will still harass you, complain to the event organiser, and have it made very difficult for you. Id actually ask that the official remove your horse/daughter etc from the event too.
I am protecting my investment and income
But that's me, some are nastier
Kiwi
Does your "contract" with the event organiser and/or property owner actually have exclusivity written into it, or is this some verbal addage. To claim an exclusive right, the person signing the contract must be sufficiently authorisied to do so and then that right must be displayed through the terms and conditions of entry for all persons including participants. This is why motor racing terms and conditions (the only true sport) go really messy with its T&Cs. Without the exclusivity clause, you might be summonsed by restraint of trade.
I have had it done to me (by what use to be a friend )and spent time and money setting up as well but who gives a .... as said all photographers take different shots and that's what ppl like different...there is such things in law as harassment ...anyone can take photos ...that would be like going to the sporting game where you take photos I bet there is a lot there taking photos ...you would be busy hunting ppl out so you would not get many photos don't you think...anyway i am over this topic ...there has always got to be one in the bunch...I thought I got away from all the nasty's but looks to me like its here as well...
My "contract" or written agreement with the event organisers does say that I claim exclusivity. The T&C, or ticket conditions (if in fact there are any, usually not) rarely mention anything apart from that I am the official event photographer and to buy stuff off me. Im aware of the potential restraint of trade issue.Kiwi
Does your "contract" with the event organiser and/or property owner actually have exclusivity written into it, or is this some verbal addage. To claim an exclusive right, the person signing the contract must be sufficiently authorisied to do so and then that right must be displayed through the terms and conditions of entry for all persons including participants. This is why motor racing terms and conditions (the only true sport
Im not being a nasty, im just saying that where I am the event photographer and trying to earn a living (or at least cover my costs) then I expect other photographers to respect that. Wouldn't you in the same position - obviolusly not?
Put yourself in my shoes, how would you like if Aunty Daisy came and took 1000's of pics and then freely handed them out or even worse sold them to all the entrants ? Like it or not it is taking money out of your pocket when this happens
I do photos at pro events, there are 100's in the crowds with cameras. What they are not supposed to do (according to the ticket conditions) is to sell those photos or use them commercially or even to publish them
I don't think Kiwi is being nasty - just defending his patch as a pro photographer. You've already run into the real nasty - the screaming woman at the pony club, who was totally out of order, and totally unprofessional.
However, you only have rights to take photos from public land. The pony club will have a lease agreement with the council or whoever, and has free rein (excuse the pun) to restrict who can take photos. But unless the woman was a pony club official, she had no right to attack you IMO. I think your approach should have been to the head of the pony club - ideally before the event - but especially in the face of harassment from the screaming woman.
(Disclaimer: IANAL, but have responsibility for two sporting events.)
Regards, Rob
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The lady I was taking the photos for was one of the ground officials and with one of the judges...as you said if she had of asked nicley i would have put my camera away...but we left the ground anyway so no more nastys would happen ...I got the photosfor my friend and thats what I went for ...Now you know how i got my name OUTLAW ...lol its also my horse stud name
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Threadstarter
I feel we are getting a one-sided story here. We have not found out if the Pony Club has an official photographer, what that agreement is, and what the conditions of them using the public land are. I tend to agree with Kiwi at present on the information provided to us.
Outlaw, consider this the other way round. YOU have a contract to be the exclusive photographer for an event (what that event is doesn't matter), then I turn up and start taking photos and undercutting your price. How would you feel/react to me presence?
As per my posts earlier today, until we are given ALL the facts surrounding this, no-one on AP or elsewhere is in a position to give a definitive answer.
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