Pixel density for bird photography

[I @ M]

The last is what Andrew has recommended...now to save

The suggestion of the 120-400 is due to the fact that us poor Nikon owners are faced with a definite lack of choices in relatively low priced lenses that go beyond 200mm.

Any half way decent quality telephoto lens has quite a bit of weight to it and if hand holding is needed they become a strain very quickly. An optical stabilisation system then becomes a must have item to supplement high shutter speeds.

As I see it the most viable way to get to 400mm ends up being a compromise between lenses along the lines of the 100-300 F/4 and a 1.4x converter which then gives you a 140-420 lens with a max aperture of 5.6 all the way and no stabilisation but at a weight of around 1550 grams or the 120-400 with stabilisation and a weight of 1750 grams.

The other alternative is the Nikon 300mm F/4 AFS with a 1.4x converter but they are pricey new and fairly thin on the ground secondhand.

[mcdesign]

Sounds like I will have to give up this idea and stick with what I have got, the weight might just be a problem.

[Kym]

<snip>
As I see it the most viable way to get to 400mm ends up being a compromise between lenses along the lines of the 100-300 F/4 and a 1.4x converter which then gives you a 140-420 lens with a max aperture of 5.6 all the way and no stabilisation but at a weight of around 1550 grams or the 120-400 with stabilisation and a weight of 1750 grams.<snip>

FWIW the bigma 50-500 is 1840 grams.
Which means with the K20D+grip and Flash - 3kgs (near enough) - which even I notice.

BUT the bigma does not have SR/OS/IS/VR - but Pentax do have SR in the body.
I have got away with 1/50th at 500mm with the tripod and SR on (which everyone says don't do - but seems to work with Pentax in body SR, I get sharper images with it on).

In fact the only times SR should be off is panning and long exposures (which it turns off SR anyway).

So... what about Canon et. al. without OS/IS/VR ... Well either a tripod or monopod are an almost must!

Then should OS/IS/VR be on when using support? Tannin???

[Riverlander]

I will stick my bb in and see how I go. I do get better pics with it off when I use a tripod.

IS on a Canon lens should be turned off when using a tripod - in fact I understand that the very new IS system will turn itself off if it "senses" it is on a tripod.

[Kym]

I will stick my bb in and see how I go. I do get better pics with it off when I use a tripod.
IS on a Canon lens should be turned off when using a tripod - in fact I understand that the very new IS system will turn itself off if it "senses" it is on a tripod.

I guess I'm trying to figure if in body SR and lens based IS need to follow the same rules. They are quite different technologies.
Pentax (and I think Sony) don't do any in body SR until you press the shutter (and therefore use negligible power).
I've googled this and there seems to be mixed views.
Personally I find that in body SR works with a tripod.

[DzRbenson]

Havent posted in this thread yet, However with the IS and onboard Stabilization, I use a Sony Alpha and if mounted on a Tripod IS should be off.

Sony themselves have advised this, if mounted then turn this off.

[Tannin]

In-lens stabilisation uses a gyroscopic sensor to detect and measure motion, then moving some of the lens elements in the opposite direction to correct for it. There are four different Canon IS systems.

1st generation

• 28-135/3.5-5.6 (1998)
• 75-300/4-5.6 (1995)

Fussy. About 2 stops of stabilisation, slow start-up (about a second), no tripod mode, not supposed to be used for panning. You can pan with one of these, but you have to start the pan before you engage the IS and stop the IS before you stop moving the camera - otherwise the IS system attempts to compensate for that big sudden stop and goes crazy. IS should be switched OFF when using a tripod because the system doesn't like not having any movement to compensate for.


2nd generation

• 300/4(1997)
• 100-400/4.5-5.6 (1998)

Same as 1st generation but adds a switch for panning mode. This apparently turns off the correction on one axis, retains it for the other axis. Still not tripod-safe. In practice, 2nd-gen IS lenses are OK with a tripod as there is almost always a little bit of movement. If your tripod is really, really good and there is no wind, then it can degrade sharpness by introducing "correction" for movement that isn't there. (Edit: I should say that I've practically never used my 100-400 with a tripod, nearly always hand-held. But come to think of it, I've posted shots here taken with a tripod and the 100-400, some of those close-ups of Belinda's birds drinking from March this year were 100-400 and tripod. I almost certainly forgot to switch the IS off.)


3rd and 4th generations

• All other Canon IS lenses

Tripod-safe. Provide 3-stop stabilisation. 4th-gen models have faster start-up and lower manufacturing cost. 3rd & 4th gen IS lenses still have a panning switch, but other than that just use as you please, the electronics are smart and will figure out what to do.

By the way, a monopod counts as hand-holding: you can use a monopod with any IS lens.

Many people say you should switch IS OFF for birds in flight, others disagree. I haven't been able to detect any particular difference, so I usually just leave it on.

I don't know where the other stabilisation systems are up to, but you'd guess that Nikkors are similar to the Canon ones. The in-body systems .... no idea.

[Kym]

Pentax new 400mm f/4 lens with the new K-7 would be a pretty good birding setup!
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...ad.php?t=31980

[Tannin]

Updated again, with new models in bold.


1.9MP - Nikon D700 (1.0 crop, 12.1MP)
1.9MP - Nikon D3 (1.0 crop, 12.1MP)
2.0MP - Canon 5D (1.0 crop, 12.7MP)
2.2MP - Nikon D40 (1.5 crop, 6.0MP)
2.5MP - Canon 10D (1.6 crop, 6.3MP)
2.6MP - Canon 1D III (1.3 crop, 10.1MP)
2.6MP - Canon 1Ds II (1.0 crop, 16.6MP)
3.3MP - Canon 20D, 30D (1.6 crop, 8.2MP)
3.3MP - Canon 5D II (1.0 crop, 21.0MP)
3.3MP - Canon 1Ds III (1.0 crop, 21.0MP)
3.6MP - Nikon D40X (1.5 crop, 10.0MP)
3.6MP - Nikon D60 (1.5 crop, 10.0MP)
3.7MP - Pentax K200D (1.5 crop, 10.0MP)
3.8MP - Nikon D3X (1.0 crop, 24.4MP)
4.0MP - Canon 40D, 400D (1.6 crop, 10.1MP)
4.2MP - Canon 1D Mark IV (1.3 crop, 16MP)
4.4MP - Nikon D90 (1.5 crop, 12.2MP)
4.4MP - Nikon D300, D300s, D90 (1.5 crop, 12.2MP)
4.9MP - Canon 450D (1.6 crop, 12.2MP)
5.4MP - Pentax K20D (1.5 crop, 14.5MP)
6.0MP - Canon 500D (1.6 crop, 15.1MP)
6.0MP - Canon 50D (1.6 crop, 15.1MP)
6.0MP - Canon 50D (1.6 crop, 15.1MP)
7.2MP - Canon 7D (1.6 crop, 17.9MP)

[Helen S]

Thanks for the update Tony, I was wondering where the 7D would fit in with all of these and had hoped it would come out of top (it's hubby's dream camera to go with my 100-400 he keeps "borrowing").

You must like the 50D, I see it made it into the list twice.

[wiggles]

Thank you Tony I'm stoked to see that the 50D is becoming more popular in the birding world

[Kym]

Updated again

1.9MP - Nikon D700 (1.0 crop, 12.1MP)
1.9MP - Nikon D3 (1.0 crop, 12.1MP)
2.0MP - Canon 5D (1.0 crop, 12.7MP)
2.2MP - Nikon D40 (1.5 crop, 6.0MP)
2.5MP - Canon 10D (1.6 crop, 6.3MP)
2.6MP - Canon 1D III (1.3 crop, 10.1MP)
2.6MP - Canon 1Ds II (1.0 crop, 16.6MP)
3.3MP - Canon 20D, 30D (1.6 crop, 8.2MP)
3.3MP - Canon 5D II (1.0 crop, 21.0MP)
3.3MP - Canon 1Ds III (1.0 crop, 21.0MP)
3.6MP - Nikon D40x (1.5 crop, 10.0MP)
3.6MP - Nikon D60, D3000 (1.5 crop, 10.0MP)
3.6MP - Pentax K10D, K200D (1.5 crop, 10.0MP)
3.8MP - Nikon D3x (1.0 crop, 24.4MP)
4.0MP - Canon 40D, 400D (1.6 crop, 10.1MP)
4.2MP - Canon 1D Mark IV (1.3 crop, 16MP)
4.4MP - Nikon D90, D5000 (1.5 crop, 12.2MP)
4.4MP - Nikon D300, D300s, D90 (1.5 crop, 12.2MP)
4.5MP - Pentax K-x (1.5 crop, 12.4MP)
4.9MP - Canon 450D (1.6 crop, 12.2MP)
5.4MP - Pentax K20D, K-7 (1.5 crop, 14.5MP)
6.0MP - Canon 500D (1.6 crop, 15.1MP)
6.0MP - Canon 50D (1.6 crop, 15.1MP)
7.2MP - Canon 550D (1.6 crop, 18MP)
7.2MP - Canon 7D (1.6 crop, 18MP)

[ving]

thanks kym, dont forget d3000 and 5000

[Cage]

Great thread, relieved to see my K20D featuring prominently.

All I need now for that perfect bird shot is a you-beaut telephoto, a co-operative subject, perfect lighting and conditions, the ability to utilise all the aforesaid, and a lot of luck.

Don't you just love photography? It's adictive. That 'once in a lifetime' shot could be just one or two clicks away................. or maybe not, but Hell, I feel I'm getting closer.

Cheers

Kevin

[stillie]

Geez somewhere I missed this thread, glad I found it. Tony very informative.
As Tony has said 400mm is a good starting lens for bird photoging, that is not to say you cant use a 300 or even if you want a 200mm lens, just means more work. Getting to know your birds habits etc.
I have use a 300mm for quite a bit, a kit lens. I found that using this has helped me to get to know how to stalk my quarry. It would be nice to have a 800mm lens, but I would not have learned what I have by using it straight of the bat.
I have a habit that more than likely will stay with me, I see a bird I want to photograph and it is a bit far for the lens, I still take a shot, then move a bit closer take another shot. Hopeing I can get close enough for nearly a full frame shot. Does not happen too often, but I still got some real good images, as far as a kit lens goes.
Now I have a Sigma 150-500mm lens, same thing applies, just because you have that bit more reach, does not mean you are going to get the image you want straight away. You still have to work at it.

I have posted 2 images I have taken with the 70-300mm lens. 1st image is exact size out of the camera. If you know your species enough, you know what they are more like to react like, waiting long enough they do come closer to you.

The second image is cropped to show that you can still get good images with a shorter lens. If you are close enough, you do not need to crop as hard. If I was further away from the bird, and I tried to crop this amount it would not look as good, pixel pinching. If you can afford go for a 400mm minimum .

Enough of my babble.

Handing back to Tony

Peter

Hi

I am looking to take up on your advice on the lens you use , but some confusing wording I need clarified as I have underlined in the quoted text above.
My understanding is that the kit lens is 75-300mm but you then talk about using a 70-300mm lens for these photos which is a totally different lens. Which lens did you then use to take the bird photos?
Thanks
Alan

[bindi]

Me, I would have cropped to have the birds eye in the 2/3 cross top right so it is looking into the photo....other that, nice sharp, well exposed shot!

[Kym]

The new 16.5mp APS-C 1.5 crop on the Pentax K-5, Sony A55 and Nikon D7000 should be good

[DAdeGroot]

So... what about Canon et. al. without OS/IS/VR ... Well either a tripod or monopod are an almost must!

Then should OS/IS/VR be on when using support? Tannin???

Depends on the lens really. The Canon 400mm f/5.6L has no image stabilisation, but in good light with good technique, it's very usable hand-held. In fact most of my birding is done with this lens on a 5DII, hand-held. The 5DII is definately a challenge for birding, having relatively poor AF and being a 1.0 crop body) but when you can get close, the image quality results are fantasitc.

Updated again, with new models in bold.

3.3MP - Canon 5D II (1.0 crop, 21.0MP)
4.2MP - Canon 1D Mark IV (1.3 crop, 16MP)

Aha, so my planned second body upgrade will give me a little more cropping wriggle room (as expected)

[exwintech]

Wow...! Now, lessee..... (Not Totally Serious...) From those Lists - 'Birding Camera' - must be CaNikon - minimum $5k body - and for birds, minimum 500mm - another $5k, for a "usable" one. Maybe "properly" means a D3x and 1200mm + a 2x TC.....

- Can't do it, this week....

Or, for cheapskates like me - a Pentax body 2007 or before - scrub K-X - K-7 - K-R - K-5.....? Nope - so I'm an "ooooops" on that-lot, too....!

Hang-on, though - somebody earlier said "Canon" is okay for Brand-Name - and 10Mpix is enough.....

Okay, then - 10Mpix Canon....

- Ahem......

Dave.

[Tannin]

From those Lists - 'Birding Camera' - must be CaNikon - minimum $5k body

Wrong. No-one said this. And your price estimate is roughly 300% too high.

and for birds, minimum 500mm - another $5k, for a "usable" one

Wrong. 400mm is generally regarded as the starting point for serious birding, which means about $1500, or around one-quarter as much as you state. And if you do want a good 500mm lens, then your estimate is 50% too low.

Maybe "properly" means a D3x and 1200mm + a 2x TC.....

Certainly not!

Okay, then - 10Mpix Canon....

A decent tool, perfectly capable of delivering good results. Of course, in the hands of a really good photographer, a much inferior camera can nevertheless deliver truly great results. But a good photographer will always try to do as much as is reasonably possible to improve his shots, which is why (if he can) he will select the best available tool at the camera shop, rather than a not-so-good tool. This thread exists to help him choose well.

Not Totally Serious

Just as well!