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Thread: Thousands of birds paying a high price for green energy

  1. #21
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    There is concern this year for the short-tailed shearwater (mutton bird). Millions of them generally migrate to Australia from Alaska each year, but not many have turned up in Aus this year. Research from Alaska suggests they have starved up there.

    There is a lot more happening to our environment that is a threat to species beyond wind turbines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurking83 View Post
    ... get rid of all cats in the world,
    Another cat hater ...

    Interestingly, the single greatest mass extinction of small mammals and birds in Australia was when the third 'wave' of Aborigines introduced the dingo into this country.

    What were you saying about cats ... ?

    For the record, I have shot more feral cats than I care to remember, and believe that responsible cat ownership requires bringing them in one hour before sunset, and keeping them in until one hour after sunrise. Our cats have never been allowed outside without being under supervision, and wearing a harness with ball and chain attached.

    stop producing all pollutants, stop destroying all habitats .. etc.
    Totally agree. Get rid of the biggest pollutant of all, our species, which has quadrupled in number in the last 100 years. That's plague proportions in environmental terms.

    I didn't say that wind turbines don't cause bird deaths. Lots of things .... cats, cars, buildings ... just about everything we've done or made kill birds.
    But if we want to stop killing birds, then lets look at the major causes before we persecute the minor ones.
    Humans, and our activities. Often careless activities.

    IIRC hundreds of millions of birds die from cats,
    See above ...
    and hundreds of millions of birds die from building related deaths, and cars. Not the 'thousands' that windmills contribute.
    Source for quoted figure, please. And whether the bird is any kind of keystone species. The farce of the dusky Atlantic sparrow should have taught us all something, but I doubt that many have even heard of it ... Most of what I have read about this on the Internet was contradicted by a somewhat more informed study published in the Scientific American.

    Look at it this way: there are elements that help to reduce a range of issues(eg. wind farms) and there are things we do(eg. build 100 story glass buildings) that aren't necessary other than as a showcase as to what humans can do!
    If one of those sectors had to stop doing it's things to help save birds from dying which would be the more appropriate development to eliminate?
    Where are the 7.6 Bn people supposed to be housed, Arthur? In single dwellings on 40 perch blocks?

    And no one in their right mind would deny that windmills don't also kill birds.
    Statistics don't exist on that issue because no one has ever commissioned a study, because there's no billion dollar a year 'interest group' with an agenda to pursue!
    You just answered several of my questions. Finally an admission that we just do not know a lot of things! However, I agree that we should apply the precautionary principle far more often than we do, particularly in relation to specific issues, rather than just as a sweeping generalisation.

  3. #23
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear Dale View Post
    In his own written words -

    Besides the impact on the coastal scenery, wind turbines kill birds. Wedge-tailed eagle and white-bellied sea eagles nest and hunt on the island. Swift parrots and orange-bellied parrots traverse the island on their migrations. Multiple species of international migratory, endangered and critically endangered shorebirds use the wetlands for six months of the year: Australian fairy tern, fork-tailed swift, little tern, white-throated needletail, ruddy turnstone, sharp-tailed sandpiper, sanderling, red knot, curlew sandpiper, red-necked stint, great knot, double-banded plover, greater sand plover, lesser sand plover, Latham’s snipe, bar-tailed godwit, eastern curlew, whimbrel, golden plover, grey plover, grey-tailed tattler, common greenshank, terek sandpiper, hooded plover. For which of these species will the wind farm be the thousandth cut?


    https://www.bobbrown.org.au/tarkine_updates_090719
    and the very next paragraph in his own written words too:

    "The transmission lines are planned to cut through wild and scenic Tasmania, including the northeast Tarkine forests and (until local outrage led to a sudden change) the Leven Canyon, en route to Sheffield and then the new export cable beneath Bass Strait. Why not use the more direct, much less environmentally destructive route aligning the Bass Highway? Better still, in the name of private enterprise, why not UPC build its own cable under the Strait from Robbins Island straight to wherever?"

    Selectively choosing what to quote is how the media manipulate. Tannin above raised the issue of the power lines being in the original statement by Mr Brown. So I add it here for completeness.
    Last edited by ricktas; 12-10-2019 at 12:33pm.

  4. #24
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post

    Source for quoted figure, please.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife the references are at the bottom. Some light reading for you

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    Arch-Σigmoid Ausphotography Regular ameerat42's Avatar
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    Gazza, you would then be tasked with providing new lyrics to fit...
    "What's New [former familiar domestic feline]..."

    -- And what about ?
    Last edited by ameerat42; 12-10-2019 at 12:50pm.
    CC, Image editing OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ricktas View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife the references are at the bottom. Some light reading for you
    Rick, the lack of such a reference page on Wikipedia titled "Dog predation on wildlife" shows the inherent bias in such matters. About half of all humans love cats and dogs equally (self included). However, about half hate cats ...

    There are psychological reasons for these figures - herd/pack animal versus solitary animal being one such. Many humans are incapable of existing/flourishing other than as a member of a herd or pack, and instinctively dislike or hate those who are true individuals. The latter is at the basis of team sports, such as football, religion and warfare ...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.p...wildlife&ns0=1

    I note that most researchers are accompanied by their DOG, which might blind side them as to the destruction caused by that species, the canids ...

  7. #27
    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post
    .....

    Source for quoted figure, please. .....
    Like Rick posted .. link to wiki. this one on wind farms information tho.

    scroll down to the environmental impact section.

    To save the time doing so .. a small snippet ...

    Habitat loss and habitat fragmentation are the greatest impact of wind farms on wildlife. There are also reports of higher bird and bat mortality at wind turbines as there are around other artificial structures. The scale of the ecological impact may or may not be significant, depending on specific circumstances. The estimated number of bird deaths caused by wind turbines in the United States is between 140,000 and 328,000, whereas deaths caused by domestic cats in the United States are estimated to be between 1.3 and 4.0 billion birds each year and over 100 million birds are killed in the United States each year by impact with windows.
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  8. #28
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post
    Rick, the lack of such a reference page on Wikipedia titled "Dog predation on wildlife" shows the inherent bias in such matters. About half of all humans love cats and dogs equally (self included). However, about half hate cats ...

    There are psychological reasons for these figures - herd/pack animal versus solitary animal being one such. Many humans are incapable of existing/flourishing other than as a member of a herd or pack, and instinctively dislike or hate those who are true individuals. The latter is at the basis of team sports, such as football, religion and warfare ...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.p...wildlife&ns0=1

    I note that most researchers are accompanied by their DOG, which might blind side them as to the destruction caused by that species, the canids ...
    I am sorry, I did not realise this was supposed to be a 'balance the scales' debate. Where dogs and cats negate each other out. Dog. especially wild ones, do kill wildlife and that is acknowledgegs, but the prior conversation in this thread was about cats. The fact dogs are predatory however does not negate the effects of cats. Or is this just an attempt at deflection?
    Last edited by ricktas; 12-10-2019 at 2:26pm.

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    Rick, please read what I have actually written in this thread. There is no "... attempt at deflection" in anything I have written. An attempt at balance, perhaps - "deflection", no.

  10. #30
    Ausphotography irregular Mark L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post

    I note that most researchers are accompanied by their DOG, which might blind side them as to the destruction caused by that species, the canids ...
    Source for quoted this, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L View Post
    Source for quoted this, please.
    Observation of thousands of documentaries on the environment and environmental issues, Mark ... .

  12. #32
    Ausphotography irregular Mark L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post
    Observation of thousands of documentaries on the environment and environmental issues, Mark ... .
    You want others to provide where they get their info from and you offer this.
    I reckon most researchers don't do documentaries so I'll observe that we have no idea if your scientific observation is valid
    Yep, I just helped with another diversion from the original point of this thread.

  13. #33
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L View Post
    You want others to provide where they get their info from and you offer this.
    I reckon most researchers don't do documentaries so I'll observe that we have no idea if your scientific observation is valid
    Yep, I just helped with another diversion from the original point of this thread.
    John will no longer be able to reply.

    2 members have been using the PM system to make personal attacks on others, who have differing points of view to their own. One has now been banned. I am awaiting a reply from the second person explaining their actions before I and the mods decide what to do about the second member.
    Last edited by ricktas; 13-10-2019 at 6:41am.

  14. #34
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    And the other party has now been permanently banned from AP also, after they chose to ignore my email request to them for clarification of what was happening. They were given till 12 noon AEDT to respond, and didn't.

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