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Bob, if snow is fresh it will always be pure white. When it has sat around with no new falls, then you will see particulate 'fallout' on it. Mainly from diesel engines, particularly those made by the VW group of companies and the Mercedes group of companies.
It appears you are not reading most of what I have written, so I will not continue to bore you.
Seems to me denying HCC has also become a religious belief.Originally Posted by John King
Threadstarter
Oh I'm reading it ..... I'm just not agreeing with a lot of it.I'm not bored though.
I'm still with you on the Atheism bit ......
Snow? Not so much.
"If you want to be a better photographer, stand in front of more interesting stuff.” — Jim Richardson
I did just want to add that this wasn't a drop mic moment where I suddenly realised the error of my ways. I've been trying to tap out of this thread for days and hoped this was my opportunity. A few tins in for the evening and I'm ready to sign out.That's an easy one. The first step in resolving a problem is to recognise that there IS a problem. This, I suspect, is where we differ.
So my first step would be to throw away that Morrison lump of coal, admit that global warming is an issue, and resolve to do whatever we can to lessen its impact. Far too much time is wasted with denial rather than acceptance, and that denial is based on political expediency rather than on any factual basis.
Having got over that huge stumbling block we would thus dispense with circular and unproductive arguments about what degree of climate change is man-made and what is natural and agree that whatever the situation it just makes sense to alter the way in which we operate. Renewable energy is the way of the future, and common sense dictates that non-polluting, renewable energy sources will give us a better world and a more sustainable world. Burning fossil fuels is a major source of pollution and mines like Adani are humongously damaging to our land and wildlife. So I would stop Adani cold in its tracks. One only has to look at Adani's track record to realise that it is an amoral and untrustworthy organisation with a track record of leaving a trail of destruction wherever it goes.
I would also examine each and every alternative such as solar power, wind power etc etc with a view to encouraging these new industries to grow, replacing the coal mines and maintaining employment. It has been demosntrated that these policies work elsewhere in the world, and the only stumbling block here is a lack of government support and promotion.
That's my first day in office dealt with .........
In light of what's followed since, I think it was you yourself, Bob, that made a valid point, in that we're probably all roughly on the same page - the difference is just how we go about what happens next. I think the climate change hysteria is ridiculous, but I also don't mind the fact that it actually helps shine a light on what cretins (generally speaking) the human race is. And that hopefully the outcome of it all will be that we as a people do make a conscious effort to stop destroying this place so viciously.
I guess the main thing for me, as someone who enjoys common sense is;
So you get all these wind farms and solar power facilities going, get rid of all the mines and then you've solved the problem in Australia. Australia is no longer adding to climate change. You've fixed it and there's no more pollution. And then what? The climate stops changing? Evolution stops? The climate stays the same for the next 1000-2000 years because we have wind farms and solar panels in Australia? Where do you turn next when there is a change in the climate in 500 years time?
Or once the blip on the radar that is Australia has everything in order, what do you do about the rest of the planet? It's realistic to think that the entire world as we know it just stops, and we do a blanket world-wide change of everything and we all stop the climate changing?
I regret if that sounds pessimistic or cynical, but as Bear indicated somewhere above, there's two sides to this equation. There's the can-do optimists dancing in a world of rainbows and unicorns, and then there's realists. Good, bad or ugly... people that can look at things logically and with common sense, even if it isn't the fairytale.
I dunno, as brought up in this thread, it is kind of like religion. You have the devout religious folk, certain they'll ascend to the clouds and live with a man with a beard and enjoy eternity in heaven while the rest of us burn in hell because we never went to church. And then you have sensible people.
Anyway, who knows? This post might not make it because it's 2019 and I don't think we're allowed to say anything unkind about religion, but there is a definite parallel. It's not always happy, but I like to think I look at the world and the state of it in terms that are realistic and logical. This whole climate change hysteria, to me, is certainly not that.
And that's about it. If we needed any more proof of how silly it's all become, I think we look no further than Bob's Iceberg funerals. I just didn't know whether to laugh or cry, so I blended the two. It's just too silly to comprehend.
End of the day - I hope we all get our way and people are more sensible about how what they do impacts on the environment. I would love to take a photograph of a waterfall without spending 10 minutes removing rubbish from the water before I take the shot. Or I'd love to walk on a beach in South East Asia and have my foot touch sand rather than six inches of garbage. As we're dealing with the human race, that won't happen. So you can either glue yourself to the street about it or you can live each day with those you love for what it is.
This was easy to listen to...
Threadstarter
John, I remain puzzled as to what you would do about all of this. On the one hand you agree that there is a problem, but on the other you seem to resent those who are actively trying to galvanise the world into action.
Sure, it is unlikely that we will entirely solve these problems. It may well be that it only defers our demise. However it's a little like the introduction of compulsory seat-belts. That initiative has not stopped people dying and being maimed, but it has saved countless thousands of lives. If we had taken your view on that and simply accepted the number of road deaths, then all of those people would indeed have died. It is so disparaging to call activists people who "dance in a world of rainbows" and I find that quite offensive. These are people genuinely trying to introduce change and to force our politicians to do something constructive. To dismiss those aims out of hand is disingenuous and insulting.
All of these activities, such as the iceberg funerals, are designed to highlight the issue and to ask humanity to change direction. That's a whole lot better than sitting around saying that it's all too hard.
You see it as silly - I see it as very, very serious. I think that's a major difference in our perspectives.
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Another very compelling and succinct analysis - thanks for that. I could listen to him all day - he makes a lot of sense. No rainbows or unicorns there!
Sorry Bob, absolutely no intention to offend but it’s 2019 and I’m as politically correct as a male and female toilet cubicle. So I didn’t mean to offend, but it seems far easier to do that than not these days.
For the record, I actually think the future looks good for the activist types amongst us. The educational system seems so left/green these days that I cannot see any way that any and almost all advancements (and there will be plenty) in the way we live into the future will not be made with majority consideration for it’s impact on the environment.
Threadstarter
I'm of the opposite view actually (no surprise there, perhaps). I see a world-wide drift to the right which is increasingly dangerous. I think that the rise of extremist governments, draconian limitations on human rights and civil liberties and an increasing tendency towards oppressive and harsh regimes is a major worry. Democracy is being challenged and everywhere there are limitations on the way humans interact. The treatment of women is appalling and the stifling of journalism is rife - even in Australia. It's not going to be a rosy future unless we move the world back to a more balanced and inclusive way of living our lives.
Oh dear. Okay, I guess that’s probably left for another day. Soon we’ll be talking about how horrendous it is that transgender and people from Uganda weren’t represented on the last series of the smash hit reality tv show, Love Island.
C'mon Gaz. 'Red' Kerry on the most left wing, socialist program on 'our' ABC ... (unfortunately, it's 'their' ABC - the power of advertising ... ).This was easy to listen to...
Ask yourself - Why have the ABC resisted the insertion of the words "fair and balanced" into their charter so vigorously? Personally, I'm amazed that they weren't there from inception.
Threadstarter
Well, if nothing else, this thread has certainly "outed" the left and right wings of our group!!! If Kerry and Sir David are driving this train I'll be first on board!!!
[EDIT] Keep right on acting responsibly towards our planet, and urge those in authority whose paths I cross to do the same at a strategic level. Educate those with whom I come in contact. [end edit]
[EDIT] I have a real problem with extremists, Bob. Of any/all persuasions. They will wreck the world far more surely than those who do nothing at all!! Look to the Inquisition, Pol Pot, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. The history of our species is littered with the disasters caused by those who thought they were doing the right thing (in their minds ... ). The horrors they caused beggar the imagination, all while pursuing "all that is right and holy". Fear the extremists, Bob. Specially ones who appear to agree with you ... [end edit]On the one hand you agree that there is a problem, but on the other you seem to resent those who are actively trying to galvanise the world into action.
I think that you are confusing me with someone else, Bob.Sure, it is unlikely that we will entirely solve these problems. It may well be that it only defers our demise.
Please don't start me on my road safety credentials. I insisted that my parents have seat belts fitted to our cars when I first got my driver's licence. I feel naked without one on. You have now stooped so low as to accuse me of things about which you know nothing of my thoughts on the subject. It's called 'jumping to conclusions', and more formally, the argumentum ad hominem ...However it's a little like the introduction of compulsory seat-belts. That initiative has not stopped people dying and being maimed, but it has saved countless thousands of lives. If we had taken your view on that and simply accepted the number of road deaths, then all of those people would indeed have died.
May I ask what brand of car you drive? Chances are, I know a lot more about its primary and secondary safety characteristics than you do, but I'm just guessing here.
I wrote nothing of the kind. However, most of the green movement is filled with lies. As a person with qualifications in political science and conflict, I see behind the front to an international socialism agenda. It woould be wonderful were we to act as one people, but try telling that to 7th century societies armed with 21st century weapons, and primitive, absolutist religious ideas. As for the greens: Remember the sinking of the old oil rig in the North Sea? I do. The greens initially claimed that there was 250 kgms of radioactive material on it. What actually eventually surfaced was that it had about 250 mgs or so in the fire alarm/smoke detectors ... Just like the ones most of us have in our homes!It is so disparaging to call activists people who "dance in a world of rainbows" and I find that quite offensive. These are people genuinely trying to introduce change and to force our politicians to do something constructive. To dismiss those aims out of hand is disingenuous and insulting.
They merely expose them for the ridiculous grandstanding that they are ...All of these activities, such as the iceberg funerals, are designed to highlight the issue and to ask humanity to change direction.
I have yet to read one post here by anyone who thought that way. Everyone appears to be in heated agreement that the planet is going to hell in a bucket. Some of us are pointing to primary causes, rather than secondary causes.That's a whole lot better than sitting around saying that it's all too hard.
Many of the suggested solutions (the all cars should be electric is one of the more insane ones - cradle to grave costs including initial build and full recycling are far higher for electric cars than for ordinary cars with proper emission controls ... ) are workable, some are crazy, so will never happen. Feel good, while doing nothing! The Victorian Government is holding some $500M of rate revenue etc in an enviromental fund, but released a miserable $10M of it to keep one of our major recycling facilities open ... I could go on, and on, and on ...
I have not seen a single post here that says caring for our environment is silly. Gross exaggeration is silly, OTOH.You see it as silly - I see it as very, very serious. I think that's a major difference in our perspectives.
- - - Updated - - -Kerry O'Brien is well known for his sanctimonious and extremely left wing views. Read John Stuart Mill and Harriet Taylor Mill's "Essay on Liberty". It might help you see these things far more clearly.
Another very compelling and succinct analysis - thanks for that. I could listen to him all day - he makes a lot of sense. No rainbows or unicorns there!
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You are again quite mistaken, Bob.Well, if nothing else, this thread has certainly "outed" the left and right wings of our group!!! If Kerry and Sir David are driving this train I'll be first on board!!!
I describe myself as "an old fashioned socialist". My political views are very much small "L" liberal, and very much centrist. I do not expect a left wing, modern socialist to even comprehend the difference between my political views and those of someone who is on the extreme right of politics. In psychology, extremes of left and right are seen as the tails of a circle i.e. adjacent to one another, not the opposite ends of a straight line.
In reality, what were the differences between the extreme left of Stalin and the extreme right of Hitler? None, for all practical purposes ... One caused the death of some 56M people, the other caused the death of some 60M people. What a great legacy each of them left behind! Extremists of any ilk is what we should all be very afraid of ...
Last edited by John King; 25-09-2019 at 1:53pm. Reason: correct spelling, and add as noted
Interesting opinion piece by Amanda Vanstone -
https://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...26-p52v38.html
While no short essay can address all the vast complexities of this subject, Amanda Vanstone's views go straight to the heart of treating each other with dignity, courtesy, respect, honour and honesty. AND presuming that others are and will respond similarly until they prove otherwise.
Thanks for the reference, BD.
Some called Kerry O'Brien out as being left wing. He's more to the center than Amanda will ever be.
Mark, only if one considers the extreme far left to be centre ...
For those interested in the planet's super volcanoes, take a look here:
https://www.ranker.com/list/the-worl...analise.dubner
For a reasonably accurate description of how this can occur, see the BBC 'documentary' style film "Yellowstone". Only the ending is sanitised - chances are that such an eruption would lead to an extinction event (see commentary on Toba eruption some 74,000 years ago - I am very interested in this period of geological time, and know a bit about it).
Chances are that if any of the planet's six known active super volcanoes erupts, the kill rate for our species will probably be 95+%, if not total extinction ...
Last time Yellowstone erupted, about 630,000 years ago, it took around 30,000 years for the planet's climate to re-stabilise. Yellowstone is roughly 30-50,000 years 'overdue' for a major eruption. It has been very active since the 1980s. Food for thought!
A million kids want to clean up the Earth......a million parents want them to start with their rooms.
Wonderful point to discuss, untidy rooms contribute to climate change.
These people have grand kids I'd think and don't have left or right leanings. I'm an active member in the N.S.W. R.F.S and what these people with knowledge say here is our experience. https://emergencyleadersforclimateac....au/statement/
Of cause discuss why the climate is changing but don't doubt it is. And it's changing faster than ever before without a volcano.
Last edited by Mark L; 29-09-2019 at 10:54pm.
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