 |
  |
 |
Thanks useful information: 9
I currently have a Nikon D90 with a Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G and Tamron 18-270mm F/3.5-6.3 DI II.
If I was to upgrade to a mirrorless, and had a small budget, should I go with the Nikon Z6 and an adaptor to keep my lens, or should I go with something else like Sony which, from my understanding, have great eye focusing abilities?
Hi MadMax
You are asking about moving from a DSLR to a Mirrorless system and you are on budget and you are
wondering about making use of your old lenses. Also, what do you mean by "eye focusing abilities"?
What other camera models are you thinking about?
At the outset it would appear the Nikon Z6 you mentioned would fulfil all these conditions. However,
there are other factors to consider. Are all cameras of about the same for image quality? Do the other
cameras have other features that you're interested in? Which camera, if any, best suits your needs or
may suit any future needs?
Anyway, that's just a little. Others will add more.
CC, Image editing OK.
Threadstarter
I believe the Sony has an eye tracking feature which I believe Nikon might be implementing soon with a firmware.
I guess I'm wondering if other brands other than Nikon are better for the price, even if it means having to buy new lens. I'm thinking that having a system that ensures the eyes are in focus might be good for me being an amateur.
Another way to ask my question would be: If someone was just starting out in photography and wanted a good budget mirrorless camera, what would you recommend (body and lens) as a starting point which they can add to as funds allow? I only mention I have a D90 in case it was a close call between the Nikon z6 and some other brand and already having Nikon based lens swayed the result.
DSC_4071.jpg
The above photo looks ok at first glance but when you zoom in, their faces are really out of focus.
Perhaps it's because I used f4, perhaps my hands shake too much to use 1/60th of a second shutter, but I wish my photos were crisper.
Here's a zoomed in look at the woman's face.
DSC_4071.jpg
Last edited by MadMax1412; 12-05-2019 at 10:20pm.
Sounds like a relatively cheap upgrade path.
If you went Sony, you'd have to get new lenses sooner rather than later, and (from memory), you can get Nikon lens to Sony camera adapters, but AF isn't ideal, and I'm fairly sure eye AF doesn't work .. I think native AF Sony lenses are required to do so.
Z series has an Auto DX crop mode for just such a situation like you're thinking about .. so at the least your lenses would work on a Z6.
Not ideal tho.
35/1.8 Dx is a good lens, usually sharp even wide open.
Tammy tho .. use it for as long as you have it, but it'd be the first one I'd replace with a full frame 'equivalent'.
No other camera maker uses the Nikon lens mount type.
Same with Canon and Sony.
You do have multiple choices in the micro4/3rds sector tho .. Olympus and Panasonic both have lenses. Very few thirdparty options tho.
Many brands will have adapters tho(most if not all thirdparty) .. to allow inter brand camera/lens combos.
Looking at the image, I'd say focus was missed.
Either just plain old missed focus, maybe back or front focus, or possibly technique .. but focus was not ideally set in that image.
Going by some exif data and that you've revelaed: seems like the 35mm lens was used, at f/4.
I've used this lens some time back and found it super sharp, so f/4 would have(or should have) got you very very crisp detail in the image.
Hence why I think focus was missed.
I see no conclusive evidence that there is camera shake, and at 1/60s, there shouldn't have been any.
it's just soft, so that leaves one of two reasons.
1/. lens is just soft. maybe from day one, maybe from a knock or shock during the time you've had it.
2/. technique is incorrect for the ability. This isn't as bad as it sounds tho.
My technique is usually lacking, more often than optimal. I know this and I realise it, so I work around it using the cameras ability.
Reason I mention this is, it may be helpful to you too.
Basically, I seem to sway as I prep myself for a shot when handheld shooting. I've actually seen this in other peoples technique too.
My common response for those folks is to use Continuous focus mode, not single shot. In a Nikon that is focus mode set to AF-C, not AF-S.
Why: as you sway, and you have AF-S mode selected, the camera will set focus and in the split second between focus being set and the shot being taken, you may have swayed fore/aft of the plane of focus originally set .. rendering the image soft due to misfocus.
If you use AF-C mode instead .. you continually maintain half press pressure on the shutter release, as you do this the focus is continually adjusted(ie. continuous focus mode). So as you sway fore/aft of the plane of focus the camera compensates, and focus is more likely to be hit.
Remember focus isn't really a spot, it works in a plane. Doesnt' really matter what point you focus on, as long as the plane is set, focus will be achieved.
eg. in your image you want the eye in focus, the eye of the woman in the image is just about the same plane of focus as the buttons on the mans top, or the leading edge of his hoodie.
Also note that with the use of F/4 on the lens, and the distance shot from, if focus was 'in the region' of anywhere near the womans face, her eyes would have been in focus.
That is, you wouldn't have only got her eyes in focus, but her entire face and more. At a guess, I'd say even the tree in the background should have been in focus.
So this leads to either technique issues, or a not so well made version of this lens.
Do you have a tripod?
Nikon D800E, D300, D70s
{Nikon}; -> 50/1.2 : 500/8 : 105/2.8VR Micro : 180/2.8 ais : 105mm f/1.8 ais : 24mm/2 ais
{Sigma}; ->10-20/4-5.6 : 50/1.4 : 12-24/4.5-5.6II : 150-600mm|S
{Tamron}; -> 17-50/2.8 : 28-75/2.8 : 70-200/2.8 : 300/2.8 SP MF : 24-70/2.8VC
{Yongnuo}; -> YN35/2N : YN50/1.8N
Thanks for the explanation. Remember, the D90 has "face detection" (FD), a feature designed with similar intent.Originally Posted by MadMax1412
Not to detract from your reasons for seeking to upgrade, but I do not think this would be the ultimate solution to any focus problems you may have.
See AK's reasons for this, but if you already use FD that may be contributing to the problem. You have to work out what the focusing problems are.
You can still do this with your present system in preparation for getting a new one. You could then transfer your knowledge to using that one. You
can start a separate thread on this issue in Shooting Help.
A separate question which I'll leave to others to reply to.
Refer to above reply about focus.
I just thought that the highlighted bit would be a good 3rd point, AK.
Don't have a D90 so can't confirm .. but I think Face Detect only works in live view mode .. which means you can't use it like a proper camera, and you gott'a hold it out in front of 'ya like a P&S.
@ Am; point 1/. encompasses the back/front focus possibility for the lens.
We'll wait till the OP replies to some of the questions and take it from there.
Threadstarter
I had the camera in either auto mode or portrait mode and auto focus on.
I'm at work at the moment so can't confirm the autofocus settings but I usually aim, half press til I get the beep and continue to press.
Being in the centre of the frame, I would have thought the auto focus system would have selected them.
BTW, never heard of Face Detect and I don't use Live View. I tried it and found it awkward.
Threadstarter
Ok, so I've got home and decided to take some test shots with the Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G.
I did the test in "pairs" - basically setting the auto focus and then doing a shot in "auto" mode and then one in "Portrait" mode. I did notice that if I changed the auto-focus settings in menu, they changed automatically when I changed to Portrait, so I had to remember to change to portrait first and then go back into the menu and change the auto-focus settings. For most shots, the auto focus points were on her body but with the single point focus, I aimed the red square at her face, half held the shutter, adjusted the shot and completed the shutter press.
Hopefully this all makes sense. In the menu, I set the A2 menu item to "Normal Zone". rather than "Wide Zone". Also in the top LCD screen, it's set to AF-A.
Photo 1 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Auto Area. Menu Dial set to Auto.
1aa.jpg
1aa_1.jpg
Photo 2 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Auto Area. Menu Dial set to Portrait.
1ba.jpg
1ba_1.jpg
- - - Updated - - -
Photo 3 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Auto.
Attachment 139561
Attachment 139562
Photo 4 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Portrait.
Attachment 139563
Attachment 139564
- - - Updated - - -
Photo 5 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Single Point. Menu Dial set to Auto.
3aa.jpg
Attachment 139566
Photo 6 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Single Point. Menu Dial set to Portrait.
Attachment 139568
Attachment 139569
Last edited by MadMax1412; 13-05-2019 at 6:22pm.
Attachment problem: In your "Attachments" pane of your Upload Manager and also in the
"Manage Attachments" list, I see only the 5 images that are visible here (now). The other
ones may be in your "Assets" pane, or you may need to re-upload them.
To fix this post as last resort, delete the ATTACH codes for the ones that didn't work, and
re-do those at the positions in the text that you want.
- - - Updated - - -
More:
I just checked by clicking on one of the green Attachment links and you still have them in the Assets pane
(for a total of 1 hour if not used). So just delete the Attachment text as above, drag each asset to the
lower pane, and position the cursor where you want it to appear then click Insert Inline.
Threadstarter
I tried that and some worked and some didn't.
Originally it told me I could only do 5 photos per post, so I tried to break it up to 3 posts, but when I did the 2nd one, it automatically joined it to the 1st one with words "-- updated --".
On my PC, if you click on the words (eg Attachment 139568) it opens in a new window.
I'll try editing them again. Perhaps it might work for some more.
edit - nope. Only allows 5 pictures to be done, although I could now do it in this post.
Photo 3 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Auto.
2aa.jpg
2aa_1.jpg
Photo 4 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Portrait.
2ba.jpg
2ba_1.jpg
Last edited by MadMax1412; 13-05-2019 at 6:20pm.
At the moment, you are using DX format, which is a cropped sensor size compared to the Z6 which is a FF sensor. I would not necessarily stick with Nikon just because you have the lenses as they are for DX and are not suitable for a FF camera and thus will need to change lenses anyway.
You can stick with a cropped sensor and still go mirrorless with say Fuji or Olympus which *may* be a cheaper alternative than going FF with a Nikon or Sony (or Canon for that matter) but you would need to check their range out to see the cost etc. The Nikon or Sony (or Canon) FF mirrorless will give you optimal IQ but you may not need to go that route as a cropped sensor will still give superb results, probably better than you have now. Much of it depends on lenses as well.
Yes, Nikon is releasing a firmware upgrade on the 16th May, 2 days away, that is supposed to give "eye AF".
I am a Nikon user and have the Nikon Z7 (higher Mp version of the Z6) and associated lenses and think it is a fantastic camera, the IQ results are stunning. The only limitation being my ability! I am probably a little biased towards Nikon, but a Nikon may not fit what you require for budget, features, ergonomics or ease of use (menu ease etc). These are the things you need to look at to ascertain whether a camera fit those requirements. Does the Z6 fit those requirements?
My PBase site: http://www.pbase.com/lance_b
My Flickr site: https://www.flickr.com/photos/35949907@N02/
Threadstarter
What would be the main advantages of a FF over a cropped sensor.
Lately I've been disappointed in my photos when I get home and zoom in on the PC. They are so blurry.
A lot of that may be my technique but as shown above, when using auto or portrait mode and different AF modes, the results are similar.
I remember when I first got the D90 with the twin lens kit and I could zoom in and see individual eye lashes nice and sharp. So perhaps it's my lenses as I sold them and got a prime plus a zoom that covered a wider range. Perhaps it's cause I'm a lot older and at 51 I might have some unsteadiness that becomes apparent in the photos.
I watch Jared Polin on YouTube and saw a video where a high percentage of award winning photos were taken using a Sony a7 III (something like 50%) followed by Canon and Nikon. Prices seem competitive so just don't know what's best but thought eye AF could help me overcome my limitations (either physical or ability).
I find it hard to remember all the settings a camera needs to be at depending on the shooting. Eg going from shooting portrait shots of my family (high percentage) to landscape and then action shots (my daughter at school sports carnival). By that I mean doing things like changing auto focus from AF-C to AF-S or whatever.
That's why I use a lot of "preset" settings on the dial (auto, action, portrait). The only time I try manual settings is when I want to blur out the background to make the subject "pop" so I go into aperture mode and set it to s lowish number. I remember from my old Fuji film SLR the lens had 2 lines on the barrel for each setting and these went to the distance ring, so you could focus on something and then look at those lines and see (for example) that everything from 1 foot to 3 foot would be in depth of field. I hope that makes sense.
Basically I'm an amateur wanting to take better than point and shoot photos. I know I won't be an award winning photographer, but do like taking great shots and taking pride in them. My extended family look to me to take photos at family gatherings etc.
Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to explain why I'm unhappy with my current photos (see previous blurry photos), what my intended use is and my level of knowledge of SLR's.
IMHO you should be getting far better images than you are. Most superzooms are of (very) questionable image quality. ...
This video should help to inform your decisions. It discusses the difference between huge prints made from images taken with a Canon 5D MkIV and an Olympus E-M1 MkII. Cut to the chase at about 9 minutes if you already know the other stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGn3yPl59ZM
tl:dr - there is no discernible difference.
ISO, and hence image quality gains in lower light for a given aperture setting. Also shallower DoF for a given FoV(field of view)
Disadvantages of large sensor over smaller sensor are the size of device(to a degree), and deeper DoF for a set FoV.
I've always questioned the size advantage, and I recommend folks to ignore it.
Cost is a major advantage to the smaller sensors tho.
Upshot of above: if you want to shoot portraits in relative darkness, larger format will give better image quality.
If you want to shoot landscapes and need to hike a trail for days on end .. crop sensor is the better gear.
For many of us 'in betweeners' who simply want an overall camera that does all manner of different stuff, only you can decide where an expected advantage is to your benefit.
Don't concern yourself with what 'others do', and by that I mean, it as a reference to Jared Polin and any information on award winning photos using this and or that .. etc.
Same with the you tube video linked too in the last reply.
1/. what others do, doesn't really apply to you and your situation.
2/. concentrate on your specific needs/abilities/requirements/etc.
With respect to 'awards' .. the primary factor with achieving awards is luck. Luck in the sense that the winners had to have many factors align perfectly for them to win those awards. Note that recent events show that some awards winner should never have been awarded those results anyhow! .. but for all intents and purposes, don't use those types of stats as a solution to a problem.
Re read item 2/. above .. if you have an issue with something, worry more about the issue, which may require a very simple fix, rather than trying to find an answer by looking elsewhere.
I asked in my last long(sorry!) reply .. do you have a tripod?
We can set you up to do some very simple tests to determine if you gear is in 'not ideal condition'.
You need a tripod. Everything else you may need to test you will more than likely have, but the tripod is a MUST!
The test will take you roughly 5 - 10 mins of your time, and we can determine if you camera or lens(es) are operating ineffectively.
One last thing: what software are you using? do you shoot in NEF or jpg mode in camera.
Highly recommended. With the D90, use Nikon's ViewNX2 software, or CaptureNX-D.
If CNX-D get the very latest version, so you may need to download from Nikon. I think ViewNX2 is still available from Nikon as a download, it's no longer supported version you want is about v2.10.3 64bit if your computer is 64bit(also assuming Windows PC too).
Also, if you prefer, you can PM me, and I can explain the test process via PMs instead. I just usually prefer to keep it all in public view as it may help others in future too.
FF generally gives you better dynamic range, better high ISO ability and the ability to get shallower DOF. However, this is more than likely not what is limiting your images.
The number of award winning shots by a Sony A7III is pretty much irrelevant as they are all capable of award winning results. However, I would question the fact that 50% are from Sony because the most camera are still Canon by a huge margin and thus most will still come from Canon. It might just be a particular set of images being entered in the particular competition or that those people are more motivated to enter a competition or whatever.
You should still be able to get great photos from your current set up so, it might be your techniques and maybe you just need to sharpen up your skills. It can take a while to get yourself decent techniques and learn how to get the best from your camera.
First, a point about on-line info: it requires a lot of interpretation and lashings of context.
I certainly agree with what has been said above about that video.
Second: the discussion has bifurcated into, and sometimes recombines, two questions:
camera upgrade, and focusing problems (as part of general camera technique).
Beware that "better equipment" alone will not guarantee better pictures. It may even do
the opposite: make you lose interest after a lot of cost. I think Lance's last line above is
correct. - You should get good pics with the D90 and at least one of the two lenses you
have. (Only because I don't know about them.)
Testing times:
Have you always had this soft focusing problem that you describe with this system?
I notice you used f/2.8 in the shots above. Have you tried them with other f-stops?
Perhaps do a number of static test shots. Set up a test pattern a few metres away
and photograph it at different settings (mainly of aperture). Use Auto Focus mode at
first, then try some with Manual Focus. This will test if the AF is out. You can even use
an extended object, like a vase of flowers, but don't change the camera-subject distance
for comparative shots, so use a tripod.
For a test pattern approach, this link appears useful.
If you discern some focus discrepancy, post it up with photos in a new thread.
Because it came up again in the discussion, we'll take some time to disseminate this claim that 50% of photo awards are shot by the A7III.
First thing: I remember Jared Polin as the yelling chap that seems to 'sell himself' using a rather unorthodox approach(the yelling!!), as opposed to the more traditional method of using quality information.
My first instinct having briefly seen a video of his was to shut it down quickly.
If you want quality data on things Nikon, Thom Hogan is a good source for 'ya.
if you really need video, check out Matt Granger. MG is OK, not brilliant, but at least he's level headed and needs no gimmicky garbage to sell himself. He seems to deal more so with higher priced gear than mere mortal priced stuff tho.
Thom does offer some advice re the cheaper end gear tho(not a lot, but enough).
As for the awards.
Without even having to search into it, I'd say there's a 99% chance that the photography award referred too is likely to be the Sony World Photography event.
Think about that for a sec. While there will undoubtedly be a varied mix of brands and models of camera entered .. for a Sony sponsored award .. really, does it surprise you that 50% are A7III's?
You don't expect that Sony would market the event vigorously to their already captured market? Those folks that may have recently bought an A7III are probably more likely to enter the comp.
Would you expect other brands to push this event .... to advertise a Sony sponsored event?
Logically it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together there!
A more relevant award event: World Press Photographer. Look into it if you will.
Results .. pretty much 90% Canon and Nikon. it varied in some years as to who was on top, but predominantly Canon.
If you were to gauge a world award event as a basis to choose a camera, this one would be it. No manufacturer skewed results here.
In the last 5 years of their operation, zero .. none, zip! .. Sony A7III cameras in their top 20 winners list.
A few A7rII results .. over just the last 4 years. I think of those results .. maybe 3 or 4 in total(in 4 years!).
If you choose your gear according to an award winning result, then you probably want a Canon 5D MkIII.
it's important to filter out the carp from the jewels when it comes to 'internet info' .. especially now that it's heavily commercialised.
While some of us here have a bias, or preference towards one brand or model over another, the fact that it then gets debated is the filter you need to sift the good info from the bad.
Threadstarter
Hey guys
Due to work, I haven't had much time to get back to this, so probably won't get back to testing the issue until the weekend. Still enjoying your responses but will reply then.
Threadstarter
Found an hour to take some photos and post a reply.
Let me know what you think after you’ve upgraded your firmware and done some testing.
I only mentioned the awards because when I (and probably a lot of the general public), think of professional photographers, we would first think of either Canon or Nikon. Yes I know Sony etc do cameras but wouldn’t have thought people who use them for work (and could get awards for such work) would use them. Thus it made me wonder if their cameras are as good as Canon and Nikon.
I shoot in RAW and JPG and for most of my “happy snaps”, if the JPG photo looks ok, I just use that. If I think I need to tweak something, I use Corel AfterShot Pro 3 with the RAW images. I don’t know enough about post production, or have a big (ie constant) use for it that I can justify paying a subscription for Lightroom etc.
That being said, the photos above are straight out of the camera and only cropped to this forum’s size requirements using Paint.NET.
Here is a photo using the Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G on a tripod. There’s no Anti-Vibration button on this lens, so it’s not a factor. I also used the timer so there’s no chance it was me pressing the button.
Attachment 139622
Attachment 139623
This photo was taken hand-held using the Tamron 18-270mm F/3.5-6.3 DI II, standing in the same spot as the tripod. From memory, the camera focused on the edge of her arms and legs (I remember seeing 3 squares flash in those spots)
Attachment 139624
Attachment 139625
Just to be clear about the above photos. I didn’t choose any settings for aperture, shutter speed or ISO. This was all chosen by the camera as I selected either “auto” or “Portrait” from the selection dial.
Running out of time today, so I will attempt this on the weekend.
MMax. In the interim with those UN-displayed attachments, I notice that the 1st and second
are quite suitably focused. As before, you have an hour before they disappear as attachable
assets. FWIW these too were taken at f/2.8. (I know camera selects f-stop in this mode.)
Good luck attaching them.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Add To Bookmarks
