Nikon Mirrorless

[Cage]

The My Nikon Life blurb has just hit my inbox.

[Tannin]

I must confess to a complete lack of interest in mirrorless kit. Wake me up when mirrorless has a decent viewfinder.

(You will probably need a shovel, some large electrodes, an old castle, and a bolt of lightning, but don't worry about that. Wake me up anyway.)

[MrQ]

Certainly priced at the more serious end of the spectrum.

[peterb666]

Looks interesting and priced right as mid-range stuff. The lenses are a bit of a disappointment - their physical length seems to indicate they may have been designed for a greater flange to sensor distance and then Nikon has cut that distance and the lenses now contain a filler. I could be wrong but they just seem too long.

[arthurking83]

I must confess to a complete lack of interest in mirrorless kit. Wake me up when mirrorless has a decent viewfinder.

...

I've never been impressed(with EVFs), so my initial temptation was quelled fairly early on with the Sony A7s when I had to have a try.

I have no doubt that at some point they will become as good(ie. no downsides at all) and then the focus(pun intended) will then be on their advantages.
I keep reading from devotees that you get WYSIWYG, which I'm calling crap.

I'm not the 'instant gratification type' where I need to see what my final images are going to look like in real time. For me, WISWIGI(what I see when I get it ) is only important once an image has been popped through my image program, tweaked a little for whatever purpose and then uploaded to share.
And for the past many years, that always requires tagging!

All I'm interested in is the possibility to use whatever manner of weird lens combinations(short flange distance) of the mirrorless design.

Major issue for me is the ergonomic factor around the size of the grip. Size of the body is critical, and if this thing is only as big as a D5500, then I'm not holding onto any sense of hope that I'll have one by the end of this year.
That'll end up a D850.

I've also noted the same point as Peter commented with lenses.

A7 is probably the best example of this for comparing against.
Almost all the A7(or FE mount lenses) are larger than all the similar lens types for Canon/Nikon, except for the ultrawides(where the short flange distance helps).
Obviously the new Sony 400/2.8 is smaller too, but I think that this particular lens was designed more from a standpoint of the need for compactness for a system where compactness is a critical selling point.
I'm sure that Nikon/Canon could build lighter weight 400/2.8's too if they thought that was a critical aspect for some shooters.

[agb]

I see no reason why a current Sony user would change to the new Nikon. Unless it is because the grass looks greener, though surely that can be changed in Photoshop.
And think of the cost.

[Steve Axford]

Arthur, I would have thought that all 400mm f2.8 users would be interested in less weight.

But on the cameras, who are the likely buyers? Only Nikon users I would guess and few of them appear willing to change from the DSLRs. It will be a tough few years for Nikon, having to run 2 lines of top end cameras and lenses and keep legacy and hopefully new customers happy at the same time.
How do you see this panning out?

[swifty]

I agree this is predominantly a release for current Nikon users or at least users who still have a foot in the Nikon camp. Those that have already made the move to switch would be far better off staying put.
In terms of development of lenses, it’s interesting that Nikon has given a roadmap of things to come for Z mount.
Just as interesting is what’s not on it.
Firstly, every lens on it is from the new S line which appears to be the equivalent of gold ring F-mount lenses with supposedly even more stringent performance bars to meet.
So even the f1.8 lenses will be premium products.
I’m surprised how early the f2.8 zooms will appear.

Absent from the Z roadmap are any macros and some fast AF primes except the 50mm f1.2 which will only appear in 2020 so I’m still expecting F mount to complete the f1.4E line which still has the 24/35/85 to go as well as a 135/1.8E.
60mm macro is rumoured to be updated soon for F-mount and I would expect a longer one too, maybe the 200mm. The next 105mm macro equivalent is probably going to be Z-mount.

The exotics are still missing the 200 f2 FL and 300 f2.8 FL.
And of course further development of the PF tele’s.
The 80-400 will probably be updated soon too.

[arthurking83]

Arthur, I would have thought that all 400mm f2.8 users would be interested in less weight.

....

Of course they would.
My point is that mirrorless hasn't really produced 'smaller kit' as everyone thinks it has/had/supposed too.

My point of using the 400/2.8 as an example, is that Sony found that it needed to be smaller and lighter in whatever way they could engineer into that lens for the marketing advantage that a compact system claims to have.

But then you look at the normal lenses, like the 24-70/2.8's Nikon's is larger, but Canon's 24-70/2.8 is smaller and lighter!(than the Sony equivalent).
With the Nikon you'd expect it to be larger and heavier due to it having VR, but the Canon is smaller and lighter than the Sony version AND the Canon does have IS built in too.

The other notable example is the 85mm f/1.4. Nikon's is much smaller and much much lighter by comparison to the Sony version, where Canon's IS version is a bit heavier, and insignificantly larger(ie. taking into account the IS mechanism).

My point being that mirrorless by it's definition or any inherent design aspect, doesn't necessarily imply a smaller kit(overall).

In terms of specific users migrating to or from one brand or another .. I think time will tell.

I think that people who do migrate once due to some attraction to a particular feature, may not think twice about migrating again .. whether that means back to Nikon, or onto Canon.
I think the specific performance of the gear will be the determining factor with respect to the migration aspect.

I do remember when many Nikon users addicted to the Nikon 14-24's that went Sony, and some Canon users ended up getting the Nikon lens even tho they were invested in a Canon ecosystem could be susceptible to migration in any direction.
I think it was Thom Hogan that called them 'leakers' or something like that.
That is, these folks know what they want, just not 100% sure how to do it at the time, and any specific must have feature will persuade them to go with 'brand X'.

@ agb. I see any number of reasons for a Sony user(as describe above) to go from Sony to Nikon(mirrorless). As long as the FTZ adapter is as capable as has currently been described(and or more) .. then you have a far greater selection of lens types to choose from with very few if any limitations.

eg. while the Sony ecosystem currently has a small selection of lenses at the super tele range, with the Nikon system it is (for all intents and purposes) unlimited from 200mm to 800mm(and even more).
And when Canon bring out their inevitable mirrorless system, their range of lenses is even greater than Nikon's is.

So far as I see Nikon's new system, I think they've made a rather large mistake in not having an adapter to suit AF-D(screw drive, AF) lenses as an option too.
While I don't have a lot of these lens types any more, they can be a fairly cheap entry point into photography for some.
I dunno about others' choices and opinions, but for me cost is probably the single most important factor. My primary purchasing decision is "can I afford it".
With that, more of those screw driven AF lenses are far cheaper than their electronically driven AF counterparts.

So if the need was a greater lens type range to choose from, AND maintaining modern features(such as AF), Nikon has really done themselves a disservice in terms of pushing the migration factor by not having a screwdrive AF adapter.

ps. I'm only using these examples as future possible choices. Personally I hate AF-D type lenses, I hate the screw drive system for it's inflexible ability, but I'm me, I have particular methods.
Not all consumers have those requirements, some just want the choice of one way to do it, or another way to do it.
Nikon seems to think that all their customer base is simply loaded to the hilt! That we all have the resources to spend $3-15K on their products.
I don't mind spending $3k on gear if it serves a purpose that I can't do any other way. I was really really close to getting the A7rII just after it came out. Had the $'s ready to get one a couple of years back.
Had I done that, and hence subsequently been a 'Sony users' myself, I'd have sold that camera ASAP once the rumours of the Nikon system garnered more credibility.
FWIW I ended up spending that $5K on two new lenses instead(with some change remaining)

I know of at least two Sony users that have committed to migrate back to Nikon based solely on the basis that Nikon now has a mirrorless system. That is without even waiting for specs and performance comparisons.

- - - Updated - - -

....

Just as interesting is what’s not on it.
....

And of course further development of the PF tele’s ...

I found that strangely curious myself.
I posted on another forum.

At some point the engineers(or manager of the team) doing the 500/5.6 PF must surely have been aware of a new mirrorless camera(and same with the mirrorless team manager).

Why they wouldn't such an opportunity to develop both an Fmount version and native Zmount version makes no sense to me .. from a marketing standpoint.
Obviously Nikon have no intention of abandoning the Fmount any time soon(otherwise they wouldn't be designing Fmount only lenses, and become reliant on the FTZ adapter into the future.

So the gist is something like this(in terms of marketing).

Nikon mirrorless is more flexible that Sony's due to having a greater range of long lenses, which included native 500mm compact lens for wildlife photographers.
As it is, I'm sure they'll get the odd photographer wanting a super long tele lens, like a 500mm) for their compact camera body to go hiking up Mt Everest or whatever, but the downside is that it needs the adapter.. making it a little more bulky than it otherwise would be.

So the mountain climbing wildlife photographer currently HAS to accept the choice Nikon has forced her into, as opposed to gleefully going with just the comapct camera, and a natively mounted lens of fairly small proportion!

I still see a dim future for Nikon looking at what the operating chiefs are currently doing(which is actually sleeping at the helm)!
Until they wake up and see(and read) what it is that some folks want(ie. greater choices), Nikon is is still going to fumble it way ahead, probably one step behind the other makers always trying to catch up.

[Bear Dale]

Wow the size advantage of mirrorless is absolutely amazing !!!!!


https://nikonites.com/attachments/mi...ly-smaller.jpg

[Steve Axford]

Arthur, I do agree that lens size is, more or less, irrelevant for all except wide angle lenses, but I doubt that the 400/2.8 was designed as a demonstration of smaller e-mount lenses. If it proves to be competitive with respect to image quality, then Sony have got a winner lens which should be a credit to their lens division, not the camera design.
I think the camera battles are fascinating and possible more so now than at any time I can remember. The factors include - lenses, sensor size and DSLR/Mirrorless (I suspect that has already been decided), and the major manufacturers all have radically different strategies. I suspect that Canon will have to change it's current strategy of - do little and keep prices down in the hope of retaining/growing their profits. When they move properly into the mirrorless market with high end cameras, they will need to do it with better sensors than on their current DSLRs and that means that they will need to make significant sales with them. Nikon can survive for a while with cameras that may not initially have high sales as they use the same sensors as in their DSLRs. I think Nikon have a hard road ahead, but Canon may be even rougher. Even Sony has significant challenges and any of the 3 majors could stumble.
Then there is the competition from smaller sensors. How will that pan out?

[swifty]

@Arthur: I saw your post on NG. But despite Bjorn’s assurances of a rock steady FTZ adapter, I suspect Nikon knows themselves Z-mount AF will not be Nikon’s top tier. Remember DSLR AF is a moving target and we’re probably a year away from a D6.
I also suspect the f5.6 aperture may be a factor given Nikon Z’s do stop down focusing up to f5.6. With ppl’s penchant for using TC’s, the aperture may drop below a threshold for acceptable performance. But I’m sure someone will be crazy enough to stick a 500 PF on a TC on an FTZ on a Z camera just to show it’s possible and should’ve been done native for Z.
Another factor is AF motors and the focusing groups. All the S lenses uses stepping motors whilst early reports are that the FTZ adapter performs well, there are a lot of ‘chattering’ noise. I think lens designs for mirrorless are quite fundamentally different and perhaps the development of the PF tele’s were too late in the process to really change the design to accommodate stepping motors.

[ameerat42]

Complaints have been received about some posts in this thread, and those posts have been deleted as a result.

Notice:
Members are reminded to avoid heated discussions according to Rule 8 of the Site Rules as a guideline.
Use facts to strengthen arguments, rather than opinions.

[Nick Cliff]

B&H have sent an email to say the Nikon mirrorless cameras are now available,

Nikon Z7 and Z6 Mirrorless Cameras

Nikon has taken the next giant leap in their imaging journey, releasing not one, but two FX-format mirrorless cameras as part of the newly developed Z Series. The Z7 and Z6share many features with a compact, durable, and ergonomic design; UHD 4K video with N-Log and 10-bit output; and class-leading speed and resolution. The differ solely in their choice of image sensor with the Z7 offering a 45.7MP resolution and the Z6 being 24.5MP, and both are back-illuminated CMOS designs with excellent low-light performance. The biggest news here is the Z Mount with its large diameter and short flange distance providing the possibility for advanced optical designs. NIKKOR Z Lenses and FTZ Adapter With a new system and mount comes new glass. Today, Nikon has officially released a trio of NIKKOR Z lenses to cover essential shooting needs. The 24-70mm f/4 S is likely to be the most popular with its versatility and compact size, which is benefitted by a button-less retractable design. Two primes are being prepped for launch: the 50mm f/1.8 S and 35mm f/1.8 S. Each promises class-leading performance with silent and fast operation. Also, for those looking to use their existing library of F-mount lenses, Nikon has created the FTZ Adapter for gaining full AF/AE compatibility with over 90 NIKKOR lenses and physical compatibility with many more.

[Bear Dale]

B&H have sent an email to say the Nikon mirrorless cameras are now available,

The 'now' is in preorder for hopefully a month for the Z7 and something like November(?) for the Z6.

[ameerat42]

Don't yer just lurve the term "pre-order". For all its lack of meaning it has wide currency.
(That's spelt with 3 $$$ signs )

Tarm wahs when you could just "order" something that as not yet available. Now you have
to be excused for speaking such French!

[arthurking83]

Wow the size advantage of mirrorless is absolutely amazing !!!!!


....

Stirrer!

It's give and take.
Compare the A7 + 55/1.8 lens to the D850 + AF-S 50/1.8 too.
The Nikon is longer .. by about 5mm or so, but the main advantage the Sony has is about 350g in weight.

Another thing I forgot to mention that was a little disappointing (not)to see in the new Z cameras, is that Nikon have left out the 10 pin accessory port.
Flash sync port I can understand, but the 10 pin port is a Nikon icon!(and PITA at the same time).

- - - Updated - - -

Something weird happened when I posted my last reply, and the 'deleted' posts and the two post I'm quoting didn't initially show up.
Then they showed up after I replied to bear's reply.

I suspect Nikon knows themselves Z-mount AF will not be Nikon’s top tier. ....

I fully realise that Nikon's primary objective is to sell gear. If you make everything backward compatible, then cheapskates like me just hang on to old gear(or hunting down every instance of this old gear as an alternative to the high priced modern stuff.
I get that, no worries.
But, I'm currently seeing it from a standpoint of somewhat confused.
They give a lens roadmap, basically looks good, except not one tele lens?
So if they want people to buy more stuff(new stuff, that is) why not at least tease those interested in the new stuff only(as an example, me .. or you).

The problem is, they're committing to this new stuff, but not fully. So on one hand they want you to buy new, new stuff(no not a typo) .. but on the other hand they want you to buy new old stuff .. new old stuff = Fmount lenses possibly with the adapter.
In marketing terms, and in terms of trying to sell this at the retail 'coal face' is .. well doesn't look good.

eg. woman off the street comes into store: She has no idea on gear, she's not a gear geek like most of us here(ie. she's not the type to hang out in fora and discuss what works and what doesn't) she just has 10K to buy camera stuff for her new photography business!
Oh! Nikon have this small lightweight camera (Z things) and she wants some lenses. No problem you can start with 4 fairly mainstream lenses. Oh! I like to shoot little birdies too she says.
Err, no worries, we have a 180-400/4, a 400/2.8, 500/4 or 500 /5.6, 600 .... etc but it requires this adapter you need to buy for an additional $250(at some point in the future).
Adapter?, what adapter? why does something need an adapter. Do I have to adapt my stuff, why doesn't the other stuff I want require adapters. I'm not adept with adopting an adapter philosophy! .. these are probably all the thoughts running through her now confused mind.

Uncertainty breed anxiety(and or contempt). I'm not really trusting what they're doing at the moment. Actually haven't trusted that they know what they're doing for quite a while now!

They go on and on about how they've just sold over 100 million F mount lenses not long ago, and how the company is now 100+ years old .. etc. all this B.S talk of heritage, and yet they not really practising their preaching.
Nikon have always been a conservative company. Barely inventing anything of noteworthiness. But the one thing I've gathered was that they have a pretty much complete system, they built their reputation on this completeness of their system and durability.
Anyhow, just my opinion that they could have done better with respect to backward compatibility and living off the corpse that was once their 'heritage'.

Arthur, I do agree that lens size is, more or less, irrelevant for all except wide angle lenses, but I doubt that the 400/2.8 was designed as a demonstration of smaller e-mount lenses. ....

I have no doubt in my mind that weight and size was a major design factor for Sony with this lens.
The examples of this are those lenses referred to earlier. The 85/1.4 and 55/1.8. Two lenses that would have easily accepted a more compact form factor, and even a reduction in mass(like the Nikon variants of those lenses have).
I assume that optical performance must have overriden that those (and other) lenses could have been made smaller/lighter, but the difference may not have been a noteworthy marketing advantage.
With the 400/2.8 tho, it's something like 1.5kg lighter.

As for Canon, it'll be interesting to see if they keep the EOS mount, or do like Nikon and use the short register distance concept that everyone else is doing now.

I'm not an optical engineer, but I find it weird that so many mirrorless lenses are longer than you'd expect them to be .. again the 400/2.8 as a perfect example. It's 1.5kg lighter(I'm comparing to the Nikon, but Canon is basically the same). But the Sony is longer by a small amount.
3620mm for the Sony, 3580mm for the Nikon. It's only 40mm, but again, this then makes the camera+lens combo about the same overall size(effectively). In fact I think the length of the Nikon combo is going to be about 10mm shorter.

So, it seems that people have overly focused on the pseudo psycological effect that mirrorles is more compact becasue the body seems to be 'more compact' but you don't use a camera body without a lens.
And over the average, it seems that the loss of bulk in one dimension, seems to have made an equal and opposite effect in another dimension.

[swifty]

I fully realise that Nikon's primary objective is to sell gear. If you make everything backward compatible, then cheapskates like me just hang on to old gear(or hunting down every instance of this old gear as an alternative to the high priced modern stuff.
I get that, no worries.
But, I'm currently seeing it from a standpoint of somewhat confused.
They give a lens roadmap, basically looks good, except not one tele lens?
So if they want people to buy more stuff(new stuff, that is) why not at least tease those interested in the new stuff only(as an example, me .. or you).

The problem is, they're committing to this new stuff, but not fully. So on one hand they want you to buy new, new stuff(no not a typo) .. but on the other hand they want you to buy new old stuff .. new old stuff = Fmount lenses possibly with the adapter.
In marketing terms, and in terms of trying to sell this at the retail 'coal face' is .. well doesn't look good.

eg. woman off the street comes into store: She has no idea on gear, she's not a gear geek like most of us here(ie. she's not the type to hang out in fora and discuss what works and what doesn't) she just has 10K to buy camera stuff for her new photography business!
Oh! Nikon have this small lightweight camera (Z things) and she wants some lenses. No problem you can start with 4 fairly mainstream lenses. Oh! I like to shoot little birdies too she says.
Err, no worries, we have a 180-400/4, a 400/2.8, 500/4 or 500 /5.6, 600 .... etc but it requires this adapter you need to buy for an additional $250(at some point in the future).
Adapter?, what adapter? why does something need an adapter. Do I have to adapt my stuff, why doesn't the other stuff I want require adapters. I'm not adept with adopting an adapter philosophy! .. these are probably all the thoughts running through her now confused mind.

Uncertainty breed anxiety(and or contempt). I'm not really trusting what they're doing at the moment. Actually haven't trusted that they know what they're doing for quite a while now!

They go on and on about how they've just sold over 100 million F mount lenses not long ago, and how the company is now 100+ years old .. etc. all this B.S talk of heritage, and yet they not really practising their preaching.
Nikon have always been a conservative company. Barely inventing anything of noteworthiness. But the one thing I've gathered was that they have a pretty much complete system, they built their reputation on this completeness of their system and durability.
Anyhow, just my opinion that they could have done better with respect to backward compatibility and living off the corpse that was once their 'heritage'.

I really don't know if your scenario is realistic at all. Someone off the street willing to spend $10k for a photography business and has no idea what to buy.

The way I see it is at least for the time being although Z-mount is the new, F-mount shouldn't be thought of as being old.
If you look at their Z-mount lineup, you'll notice every lens is the new S-line which is a higher bar of performance to clear than gold ring F-mounts supposedly.
Z-mount FX is not positioned as entry levels at all, price wise so buyers are likely to be clued up unless its a very well heeled beginner.
There may be future lower end Z-mounts with lenses that aren't in the S-line but not currently.

The way I view the Z6 and Z7 is that it is primarily catered to F-mount users as a companion mirrorless rather than models for people who want to completely switch to mirrorless. Not that they can't, but the Z-mount lenses lineup are just not there yet unless you specifically want just the first three lenses they've released.

If you look at the release schedule, the Z 24-70/2.8 S and Z 70-200/f2.8 S are coming next year and the current models are named Z6 and Z7. To me that says Z8 and Z9 are just around the corner perhaps coinciding with the D6 launch.
The Z6 and Z7 still feel a bit rushed to launch IMO and has many elements ported over from DSLRs. I feel these are transition products whereas a hypothetical Z8 and Z9 will be the start of the professional system for Nikon Z.

As for tele lenses, I think they will remain the domain of F-mount (inclusive of potential future F-mount mirrorless) until the Z-mount system has started to mature.

[arthurking83]

I really don't know if your scenario is realistic at all. Someone off the street willing to spend $10k ....

.. I should have used a cheesy after that psuedo scenario.

But the point made was that some lenses don't need adapters, and other lenses need adapters. To the uninitiated it'll come across as confusing.
Should be remembered that the vast majority of photography gear customers are like us, checking forums and discussing the merits of all this gear.

Too many times I remember when Nikon first came into the 135 format digital market and folks got into a D700, and were unsure if their Dx lenses would fit(physically) or whatever.

I reckon you're spot on re the target market on the Z6/7 too, and possible Z8/9 type higher end stuff coming later.
There's a lot of talk about the single card slot, whilst at the Z7 price range it seemingly makes no sense(think D850 level market), if they have plans for a Z8/9 level camera at an even higher price bracket, then the single card slot does make sense.

Additional:

I found (via NG) a link to a PDF doc from Nikon explaining some of their design choices for the new Z mount:

Mirrorless Reinvented

Warning** Marketing guff warning on a grand scale in the doc too(Am, you were warned! )

Interesting that they talk about a higher resolution future in there. ie. implying more Mp to come .. again Z8/9?

[arthurking83]

Just downloaded some sample NEFs from the Z7.

IQ looks fine.
Hard to determine exact IQ yet as firmware are still all beta.

24-70/4 lens looks fine tho, too much movement in the 35/1.8 pics to tell if it's just movement or misfocus too.

One thing that's going to be hard to resist would be a Z camera + the 58/0.95 lens, but my prediction is that it's going to be a US$4K + lens, equating to about Au$5K.
So not really expecting to have that combo any time soon, unless one of my kids are open to the idea of a trade

as a side note to the new camera system Nikon have finally seen fit to reintroduce colour control points into Capture(NX-D).
bout bloody time!
Problem is I've already spent $s on DxO's software.
Not that I like CNX-D anyhow, it's still hopelessly slow on my PC(which I built a faster one in the hope it'd help) compared to CNX2.
I reckon I complained about 10x in the comments area of the website years back when Nikon first brought NX-D out.

So any non-Nikon users could try colour control point editing(on jpgs) for free, once it's out for download.