Sexism in the photography industry

[arthurking83]

.... Almost all photographers will be proficient at the D850 if they actually are photographers and they are given the camera and lenses ....

You recently found yourself in the situation described here with a D3(as per your comments in my other thread) .. I also have recently with the little D5500.
Much fumbling around the menu system trying to find how to get focus point wrap around!

if I were a manufacturer and I had the option of a macan who was proficient with the device .. and a photographer with accolades to the hilt but not proficient with the device .. I'd always choose the macan .. even if that meant possible copyright proceedings against me!

And when I mean proficient, I don't mean point the device and take a nice looking image. I mean know where and what each item in every menu does/means/and affects.

I know how to set up focus tracking with lock on, on both the D800 and D300, and even how it affects different lenses I have. I have no idea how to get into that same menu on a Canon, Sony(if they even have it) .. etc.
Interested customer comes up to me (the numbskull ambassador for a device I know nothing about), asks me how to set up 'focus tracking with lock on' setting and what's the difference between one setting an another.
Of course I know nothing about it let along it was even a thing .. and that interested customer now thinks I'm a fool(not knowing simple basic setup advice for the device). How does that look for the manufacturer?

I know how I'd react to that situation if I were the customer .. straight onto AP .. new thread .. "this person claiming to be an expert on <new camera body> is an idiot"

While it'd be nice to live in a dream world where all this is about photography ... the harsh reality is that it's about selling cameras ... live view marketing I guess.
The photographs make the ambassador look like the next best thing since <whatever her name was that won the last big award!> ... and their knowledge of the camera at hand makes them look like a camera control god/goddess.
That's what corporations want. Good photographers are a 'dime a dozen' nowadays!

[Steve Axford]

Unfortunately, Arthur, you are not a camera manufacturer and thus don't get to choose. I don't know how Nikon chooses, but I assume it is similar to their competitors. They don't seem to care if you are a techno wizkid and why would they? They will always go for someone who can take great photos rather than someone who can make the camera do loop the loop. And why would they care if you are already proficient with the camera, since nobody is before it is released. They find people who they think will be good advertisements and give them the early release cameras. Maybe a couple of their ambassadors need to be techy people, but not most of them.
As for your comment about what you'd do. Why would they care, as somebody on the internet will always do that (and everything else too). Anyway, most people buy cameras to take photographs, not to admire the specs. DPReview and sites like that cover the specs. The ambassadors show that the camera can take real pictures. They're not there to help you with the knobs and menus.

[arthurking83]

Unfortunately, Arthur, you are not a camera manufacturer and thus don't get to choose. I don't know how Nikon chooses, but I assume it is similar to their competitors. They don't seem to care if you are a techno wizkid and why would they? They will always go for someone who can take great photos rather than someone who can make the camera do loop the loop. ....

I'm thinking that Nikon may be different then:

The Nikon Ambassadors are authorized by Nikon to demonstrate to the public and professional image makers the capabilities and use of Nikon imaging products, but the expressive content of their work is solely their own. Nikon Ambassadors are independent contractors and visual artists and are not employees of Nikon. Nikon Ambassadors are responsible for the content of their photographs, websites, exhibitions, and visual images and the manner in which such content and images are obtained. Any messages, beliefs, or viewpoints expressed in the Nikon Ambassadors’ photographs, websites, exhibitions, or visual images do not necessarily reflect the opinions, beliefs or viewpoints of Nikon or any Nikon employee.

the important section of that disclaimer which appears at the bottom of the ambassadors page is:

The Nikon Ambassadors are authorized by Nikon to demonstrate to the public and professional image makers the capabilities and use of Nikon imaging products

I didn't hypothesise all my previous comments just because I can .. I guessed at because this is the disclaimer at the bottom of many of their ambassador pages!

how do you demonstrate the capabilities of something if you don't know how to operate it?
Seems a bit silly to allow someone to demonstrate something with no prior knowledge of it, or is that the way of the future now?

Or are you implying that Nikon is lying with that disclaimer and that the ambassadors aren't really authorised to demonstrate Nikon's products capabilities and usage?
I'm curious as to what insider info you have that Nikon's claims are false there, as you seem so adamant that these ambassadors don't need to know how to use the products?

There's a difference between being a techy person, and knowing where the wireless flash menu is, and how to enable/disable it ..
Or the sport/wildlife photographer knowing what AF-On with priority set to AF and how to decouple the shutter from exposure in the different priority modes!
I've never stated that they need to be techy persons .. and know the ins and outs of the makeup of the sensor, or how the Expeed 5 processor does it's thing .. simple menu things that could make a D3 nicer to use.

That's not techy .. that's just knowing the menu, and how to set the camera to shoot raw or jpg, or raw + jpg!!

And this comment:

... Maybe a couple of their ambassadors need to be techy people, but not most of them ...

Maybe .. the Nikon Asia ambassadors that were techy were 32 male, 1 female, and they asked that one female to attend, and she couldn't.
The only possible conclusion here is that Nikon Asia are sexist, and/or gender biased ... and not that the one woman was busy and that any other women could be bothered or were disinterested.

The new outlets just look for headlines that grab attention. The vast majority of the general population reading those headline aren't interested in the industry nor the article. We, being interested in the industry, read the article. There are enough comments re that article to suggest it's a bogus headline, where Nikon explained themselves. Irrespective of how valid or pathetic that explanation was .. we can only take it as they state it.

[Kym]

A comment on a forum?

Yes, it all depends who wrote it... i.e. a Nikon employee - but meh!

[arthurking83]

Oh!

I forgot to ask this yesterday too:

does this video show Nikon as being gender biased or gender neutral?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/new-nikon-d850

You don't need to watch it all tho.
Summary is:
First 5 mins if animated guff.
Next 40 mins has a female presenter, two Nikon photographers (1male 1 female) and one Nikon employee (being the techy person)
The 4 of them discuss aspects of the D850 as a still camera, as Steve implied the togs discuss about how great the camera is and how it helps them make photos, the techy guy explains the tech stuff.

I actually didn't watch it, just skipped here and there, so I have no real idea on what they actually talked about. It was actually quite boring.

part 2 of the vid from about the middle of the stream.
1 woman and 3 guys.
Same presenter woman as before, 2 video guys, and a different tech guy explaining the video tech stuff.

Part one shows gender neutrality(@ 50%) .. pretty silly of a gender biased company to do that!
Then we have gender inequality(@ 25%) .. now that's more like it! This is the Nikon we've been informed about.
ps. that vid predates(28/8) the faux news from Nikon Asia .. so there's no cover up there either.

[Steve Axford]

I'm thinking that Nikon may be different then:



the important section of that disclaimer which appears at the bottom of the ambassadors page is:

The Nikon Ambassadors are authorized by Nikon to demonstrate to the public and professional image makers the capabilities and use of Nikon imaging products

I didn't hypothesise all my previous comments just because I can .. I guessed at because this is the disclaimer at the bottom of many of their ambassador pages!

how do you demonstrate the capabilities of something if you don't know how to operate it?
Seems a bit silly to allow someone to demonstrate something with no prior knowledge of it, or is that the way of the future now?

Or are you implying that Nikon is lying with that disclaimer and that the ambassadors aren't really authorised to demonstrate Nikon's products capabilities and usage?
I'm curious as to what insider info you have that Nikon's claims are false there, as you seem so adamant that these ambassadors don't need to know how to use the products?

There's a difference between being a techy person, and knowing where the wireless flash menu is, and how to enable/disable it ..
Or the sport/wildlife photographer knowing what AF-On with priority set to AF and how to decouple the shutter from exposure in the different priority modes!
I've never stated that they need to be techy persons .. and know the ins and outs of the makeup of the sensor, or how the Expeed 5 processor does it's thing .. simple menu things that could make a D3 nicer to use.

That's not techy .. that's just knowing the menu, and how to set the camera to shoot raw or jpg, or raw + jpg!!

And this comment:


Maybe .. the Nikon Asia ambassadors that were techy were 32 male, 1 female, and they asked that one female to attend, and she couldn't.
The only possible conclusion here is that Nikon Asia are sexist, and/or gender biased ... and not that the one woman was busy and that any other women could be bothered or were disinterested.

The new outlets just look for headlines that grab attention. The vast majority of the general population reading those headline aren't interested in the industry nor the article. We, being interested in the industry, read the article. There are enough comments re that article to suggest it's a bogus headline, where Nikon explained themselves. Irrespective of how valid or pathetic that explanation was .. we can only take it as they state it.

Maybe you are right. I was thinking that their ambassadors would be similar to other ambassadors, but maybe they are just expected to be trainers.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, it all depends who wrote it... i.e. a Nikon employee - but meh!

For some reason that makes no difference

[swifty]

I can definitely see where Arthur is coming from and I would desperately love to hear first hand accounts from the women who are supposedly being so hard done by here. If there are real stories from real women who think there is a great injustice occurring here, there's a story.

Otherwise, are people perhaps creating an inconvenience where it may not really exist? It just happens far too often in the modern world. Not every single thing needs to be an issue, surely?

Precisely.
But as I had said earlier about people in privileged positions can often be oblivious to issues with minorities.
So yes, I'd also like to hear from our female colleagues.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a subject close to my heart. So apologies if I go off on a tangent.

I have no idea who is male or female on this thread, apologies, well except a couple obviously, Rick and Arthur as whilst the name may suggest it, I have actually met him so I can be fairly confident of the genders there.

I have done a lot of research into gender diversity in engineering. I know not quite photography but I think some of the challenges are aligned.

Anyhow one of the reasons, apart from unconscious bias (test your own here), the need to be part of a group and a lack of role models, is confidence.

Whilst there are more similarities between men and women then there are differences, one aspect that has stood out is that women lack confidence in areas they feel they are not represented equally in. Where as men tend to have a natural feel of I can do this, I've got this, I am excellent at this, women tend to have an attitude of am I good enough, is my best acceptable, I've got to do more to be accepted.

One area this has been proven is in Maths at high school, if you ask boys how good they are they will in general be confident that they are very good. Girls on the other hand will be less confident in their abilities yet will in general get better exam scores. Add this to the fact that gender stereotypes are ingrained by the age of 10 (more here), you will see why better achievement in STEM at school does not translate to more women in engineering.

How does this relate to women in photography? Well I would suggest that whilst a man may revel in the glory of being an ambassador for a brand a women may not feel confident enough to have their abilities critiqued by the masses such a position would attract.

Now I don't know that photography is mans world, it is not something I have really thought about. I know a lot of women photographers but they tend to be in the area of babies, pregnancy and family photography. When you look at landscapes, I see more men, as well as aviation (that is male dominated to the extreme but you would expect that going back to the engineering) and automotive. But if I think about well known photographers, and to be honest I don't really follow famous photographers, apart from Anne Geddes when I think of women photographers I am hard pressed (and again she is in the world of babies and kids), but that may be me not really following any.

Whatever the industry a lack of role models is a problem. It is becoming a problem in teaching, there are not enough men, it is a problem in nursing, again not enough men, in engineering and STEM. Gender diversity is important because we all have a different point of view and we need them to solve the problems of the world. (wow that was a bit deep) But you catch my drift. Balance is important and whilst I never in a million years expect there to be 50/50 in engineering it is important that everyone feels comfortable doing any job.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I guess where I was sort of going with the female:male competition entrants comment has something to do with what you said about confidence. I was thinking something along the lines of are men more likely to strive for recognition and accolades?
And if ambassadorship can be seen as such, could some of discrepancies in gender distribution be attributed to this? Hence I was interested in how this whole ambassador program works.

But I think you also touched on an important point regarding role models. And I think you're absolutely right. Regardless of the circumstances that led to this oversight, it reflects poorly on Nikon, at least in western media and I think they have a responsibility to include more female role models if they want to be seen as a global company.

I think Arthur also raised some important issues regarding cultural differences. However I'd like to point out this doesn't appear to be just a western vs eastern thing. I've come to note that in my current country of residence, females are extremely well represented in the corporate world especially very high leadership positions in local Singaporean firms. So it is easy to stand on our high horses and point fingers at who's supposedly not doing the right things but things aren't always so rosy in our own gardens eg. senior Australian corporate culture is still dominated by white men. However it does appear women have an extremely low representation in Japanese firms so one has to wonder whether those ideology are being translated into their marketing drives.