Sexism in the photography industry

[Tannin]

Anybody know how one becomes an ambassador?

The simplest method is to bring down the worst budget in living memory and smoke a cigar afterwards.

[Geoff79]

What shampoo and conditioner?
Hey, I wanna know the left hand missed out on

Head Strong, by Prince. 2 in 1 shampoo and conditioner. From Aldi. Not only does it clean and soften my hair, but it also keeps it on my scalp, allegedly.


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[arthurking83]

You seriously think it may be due to lack of ability?

I've noted this before, and it's worth reiterating again ..

we can't impose our preferences for what we think is ability on others .. just like I think .. XXXX is great, you can't tell me that they aren't.

Nikon is allowed to have their voice as much as we are.

AND .. just because there is ability, doesn't automatically = that this able woman is going to be a Nikon ambassador.
She may choose Nikon products for their ability of ease of use or whatever .. doesn't mean that she endorses Nikon!
maybe they have restrictive policies that she doesn't want to adhere too ..
Most likely the geek factor tho .. maybe she's just not interested!

There's to many variables as to why the current situation is biased as it is for us to pass judgement without all the info.
NDA's, mutually exclusive philosophies .. whatever.

eg. In a weird world Nikon come to me and ask me to be an ambassador, and they give me free stuff(not beer, not a big fan).
But the deal would be that I'd have to be in their NPS program and I'd have to buy a certain dollar value of gear every year.
And I'd have to provide a certain amount of work every so often, and I'd have to attend certain meetings/events at any given time of year(that they choose) and be away from home for a given time(that they require) .. etc.

For me, much as I'd love the free stuff, no way I could commit to any of those impositions.
What's the point of being an ambassador if they're only going to remove it due to my unavailability and lack of interest in buying a lot of their stuff every year .. etc. etc.

Who wouldn't be jumping for joy at the prospect of free stuff?

Not me! .. I can't afford more than about 3 days from home, I need to work to pay for my hobbies, I can't be stuffed most days to get out to take a photo. All sounds like work, and I hate work
I like my hobbies just the way they are, and would decline any offers like that.

Maybe women are simply more practical on the whole than men .. and men just enjoy that cache of being an ambassador more than women do.
I can't seriously imagine the situation that Nikon haven't approached a single female Nikon photo in Australia.
But I can imagine the situation where a practical hard working non ego centric woman would see it as too much work for no financial gain!

[Tannin]

Maybe women are simply more practical on the whole than men

Correct! This is why most female photographers use Canon gear.

[swifty]

Correct! This is why most female photographers use Canon gear.

Explains why I use Nikon gear.
I did own a G12 once. Think I was trying to get in touch with my feminine, I mean practical side.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but.... I wonder what proportion of photography competition entrants are male vs female?
There are no barriers to gender for entry and assuming there's roughly a 50:50 distribution of sexes amongst photographers in general I wonder if there's also a skew towards male entrants.

[swifty]

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/...-it-again.html

Some commentary on the initial incident.
Paraphrasing some of his points:
- the "unfortunate incident" as Nikon puts it, should have been picked up and easily avoided.
- Nikon has not apologized properly by phrasing it as an "unfortunate incident", implying it is unfortunate for Nikon to be in the situation.
- A large part is due to the corporate culture at Nikon specifically, stemming from top management down and their very 'paternalistic' approach.
- He also suggests he's seen male photographer given opportunities quicker than women although I'm not sure if that statement refers to Nikon or generally.

So, whether you agree with Thom or not, he is a respected Nikon guru with some good insights in the inner workings at Nikon.
And he is suggesting that sexism (and not just inequality in gender distribution) is what led to this incident.
Of course, that's not to say there aren't other issues at play here but according to Thom, corporate culture at Nikon played a big role.

[Tannin]

^ Stodgy old-school Japanese corporation behaves in stodgy old-school manner.

Gosh! Who'd a thunk it?

[arthurking83]

Yeah fair nuff .. but we're looking at it from our western cultural perspective, where gender equality is a news item every day!
What if Japanese culture doesn't place much emphasis on gender equality as it does absolute merit.

Of course I'm not Japanese .. just trying to get my head around a supposed problem.

eg. if gender equality is really such a major issue for the Photographic community .. why are there no protestations about Fuji's massive gender inequality on their amabassadorship list.
(counted the numbers: 430 ambassadors listed, 39 female)

I can only assume that this is worldwide, and the list is alphabetical ... I can't imagine that list is just a single region/country.

ps. this isn't a dig at Fuji .. it's simply the only camera company that gives the searcher an easy to locate list of their X-people.
Couldn't find any detailed info at Sony, Canon or Nikon, other than tidbits here and there for given countries/regions.

But from what I see, there's a massive discrepancy there in terms of gender equality .. no one has ever batted an eyelid about this.
From the main Nikon locations I can gather info on(US/Aus/Europe(but not specific countries)/Middle East-Africa(only 1 listed)/Asia(>50% female .. I think) .. I calculated that the numbers are about 33%(or maybe it was 38%) women.

Thom makes the point that there are only 7 women out of 31 ambassadors(29%). From the scant info I can find in their ambassador areas, only 2 of them appear to use a D8xx type body on some manner. Most use the D4/5 type bodies.
So if Nikon USA asks all D850 ambassadors to a party, and 2 females decline (out of the two seemingly using D8xx bodies) .. what are NikonUSA's options from there?

All I can see in that story is a teacup and a storm being brewed.
Had the story been Nikon ambassadors worldwide involving all Nikon products(ie. not specifically relating to the D850) .. then there's an argument to be made.
Not only for Nikon, but I'm thinking all others too

One thing is for sure(at least in the western hemispheres) is .. they'll be scrambling to redress the gender gap!

[Steve Axford]

Arthur, you seem to be implying that Nikon is just awarding their ambassadorships based on merit. It follows from that you most likely think that women generally do not merit photographic awards??? I'm sure you don't mean that.
This is a problem with our society, not with the photographic industry alone, nor with a particular manufacturer. To try to defend Nikon just makes you appear to support gender inequality.
You make a very valid point when you say that other manufacturers don't have many women ambassadors either. Sony certainly don't.

[Geoff79]

I can definitely see where Arthur is coming from and I would desperately love to hear first hand accounts from the women who are supposedly being so hard done by here. If there are real stories from real women who think there is a great injustice occurring here, there's a story.

Otherwise, are people perhaps creating an inconvenience where it may not really exist? It just happens far too often in the modern world. Not every single thing needs to be an issue, surely?


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[tandeejay]

just like I think .. XXXX is great

Glad to hear your enjoying Queensland beer

[arthurking83]

@ tandeejay ...

Arthur, you seem to be implying that Nikon is just awarding their ambassadorships based on merit. It follows from that you most likely think that women generally do not merit photographic awards??? I'm sure you don't mean that.
This is a problem with our society, not with the photographic industry alone, nor with a particular manufacturer. To try to defend Nikon just makes you appear to support gender inequality.
You make a very valid point when you say that other manufacturers don't have many women ambassadors either. Sony certainly don't.

Where the merit comes into the equation is simply merit with proficiency with the D850.
Remember that the entire situation is that Nikon couldn't get any(even if that was only one!) females D850 ambassadors to participate in the event. The key point to note is the D850+ambassador .. ie. the two terms are to be taken as one.

So we know Nikon has (few) women ambassadors, how many of them accepted a role as a D850-ambassador?
I'm assuming possibly two in the USA(judging by the gear they appear to be using)
So Nikon may have a few D5 and D500 female ambassadors, but are they D850-ambassadors as well?
Does a D5 ambassadors(irrespective of gender) have the merit to showcase the D850?

So if they only had one woman in the Asia region accept the role as a D850-amabassador then she would have the correct merit/qualification/whatever to be invited to the specific event.
Noting that this ambassador should be proficient with using the D850, know all the menus, all the pitfalls(so as to not embarrass Nikon with an awkward situation .. etc, etc.

merit here doesn't mean merit as a photographer .. merit = ability to use D850 with their hands tied behind their back, blindfolded, multitasking, and explaining to some other geek the subtleties of the D5 .. all at the same time.

Sony has few female ambassadors, and so do Fuji (we'll include Nikon in this list simply for maintaining equality on the topic of inequality ).
Sony need a female ambassador for a region where there are none available on the day of the event, or none exist at all(for that region).
Do Sony invite a Fuji female ambassador to showcase the A9 which would be a totally foreign camera for her to navigate around? Would she understand the limitation of the 20fps feature, and why some curious attendee set the camera to mechanical shutter mode and now it can't shoot faster than 10fps and the viewfinder shows the dreaded blackout?

She needs to have the right qualifications to eliminate the possibility of any uncomfortable situation for the manufacturer that would go viral on social media sites.


I think what you have concluded is that my point was that no woman photographer has the merit as a photographer to be invited.
If I were a Nikon head honcho(in any region, let alone an Asian one) I would invite Annie Lebovitz or Lisa Saad to showcase the D850. They may have more merit than everyone combined here as photographers but that means zip! for a D850 event. They just don't have the correct qualification to show the public how the menu works or the systems operate.

Put the question another way: How would you go as an ambassador for Nikon for a D3 event? I know I wouldn't do well. With enough familiarity with the body, I suppose that situation could change tho.
I know I could do well as a D300 ambassador tho. Possibly as a D800E ambassador .. I know those two cameras well enough now and the menu systems pretty well. I'd probably have to 'borrow' someone esles photos to show that I'm a capable photographer tho.
Of course I used the word could here as it'd probably be a failure on Nikon's behalf .. I'd be pointing out all the niggles and foibles the annoy me .. not so good for Nikon .. better understanding of the limitations for the potential customers!!


Like I've said a few times now.
As westerners we're blinded by what we determine to be issues that require urgent attention in our region. We then latch onto those issues so firmly, that we then extend them into any information we see fit to distort to our preference.

On a personal level: I know three professional photographers(not here) but through friends and acquaintances in the real world.
I also know 3 amateur photographers in the real world too. myself included in that group.
Do I see gender inequality in the photographic community on the whole?
Yes!
3 pros are all female, us amateurs are all males .. I'd prefer that balance was corrected!

[Steve Axford]

I very much doubt that merit with proficiency with the D850 has anything to do with it. The cameras will be given to the ambassadors based on their photographic profile and how good they are at selling themselves to Nikon (or Sony or Canon). Almost all photographers will be proficient at the D850 if they actually are photographers and they are given the camera and lenses. I doubt that the manufacturers are aware of their own biases, but they should be. As should all of us.

[Kym]

I saw a comment on another forum, Nikon had approached a bunch of female 'togs and they turned Nikon down ... what can they do?

Talk about a stupid article.

[Steve Axford]

A comment on a forum?

[rellik666]

This is a subject close to my heart. So apologies if I go off on a tangent.

I have no idea who is male or female on this thread, apologies, well except a couple obviously, Rick and Arthur as whilst the name may suggest it, I have actually met him so I can be fairly confident of the genders there.

I have done a lot of research into gender diversity in engineering. I know not quite photography but I think some of the challenges are aligned.

Anyhow one of the reasons, apart from unconscious bias (test your own here), the need to be part of a group and a lack of role models, is confidence.

Whilst there are more similarities between men and women then there are differences, one aspect that has stood out is that women lack confidence in areas they feel they are not represented equally in. Where as men tend to have a natural feel of I can do this, I've got this, I am excellent at this, women tend to have an attitude of am I good enough, is my best acceptable, I've got to do more to be accepted.

One area this has been proven is in Maths at high school, if you ask boys how good they are they will in general be confident that they are very good. Girls on the other hand will be less confident in their abilities yet will in general get better exam scores. Add this to the fact that gender stereotypes are ingrained by the age of 10 (more here), you will see why better achievement in STEM at school does not translate to more women in engineering.

How does this relate to women in photography? Well I would suggest that whilst a man may revel in the glory of being an ambassador for a brand a women may not feel confident enough to have their abilities critiqued by the masses such a position would attract.

Now I don't know that photography is mans world, it is not something I have really thought about. I know a lot of women photographers but they tend to be in the area of babies, pregnancy and family photography. When you look at landscapes, I see more men, as well as aviation (that is male dominated to the extreme but you would expect that going back to the engineering) and automotive. But if I think about well known photographers, and to be honest I don't really follow famous photographers, apart from Anne Geddes when I think of women photographers I am hard pressed (and again she is in the world of babies and kids), but that may be me not really following any.

Whatever the industry a lack of role models is a problem. It is becoming a problem in teaching, there are not enough men, it is a problem in nursing, again not enough men, in engineering and STEM. Gender diversity is important because we all have a different point of view and we need them to solve the problems of the world. (wow that was a bit deep) But you catch my drift. Balance is important and whilst I never in a million years expect there to be 50/50 in engineering it is important that everyone feels comfortable doing any job.

Thanks for reading.

[jim]

So in other words, Roo, sexism doesn't have to be the result of anyone's conscious choice? It can be systemic (social or institutional) and perhaps unrecognised even by people who think they're on the lookout for it?

[rellik666]

So in other words, Roo, sexism doesn't have to be the result of anyone's conscious choice? It can be systemic (social or institutional) and perhaps unrecognised even by people who think they're on the lookout for it?

Most definitely. I am more than aware of it but I still get caught off guard. Unconscious bias is a problem most people don't even realise exists.

[Steve Axford]

In my experience there are just as many pro photographers who are women as there are men, and the skill levels are about the same. To become an ambassador usually takes someone approaching the manufacturer and telling them how good him or her is. From what you say, it could be the case that far less women are cocky enough to ask.

[rellik666]

In my experience there are just as many pro photographers who are women as there are men, and the skill levels are about the same. To become an ambassador usually takes someone approaching the manufacturer and telling them how good him or her is. From what you say, it could be the case that far less women are cocky enough to ask.

I wouldn't be surprised if that this was the case tbh.