Don't take children out to a public space in case someone wants to take a photo?
Don't take a good looking candid photo of a kid in a public space because ..... ?
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Don't take children out to a public space in case someone wants to take a photo?
Don't take a good looking candid photo of a kid in a public space because ..... ?
Totally agree with you about it not being illegal and that it is a fear and or phobia but it is not a baseless fear and or phobia and as such I respect parents decision to not have there children photographed by a total stranger who may or may not mean any harm, if you want to take pictures of someones children then simply ask their permission, it really is that simple. If you are in a place with a high number of children then don't take the pictures as you may or may not upset some of the other parents.Originally Posted by markdphotography
Again totally agree with you, in fact this has happened to me when wanting to take pictures of my granddaughter at her school play when I was politely asked to stop taking pictures or leave.
We are not talking about other countries, we are talking about Australia and the fears that Australian parents have. No disrespect intended.
Well that would be when parents would take their kids to a professional photographer to get portraits etc done, so would be a good thing for us photogs lol
Well again I agree with you on the lack of common sense but as I said this is the world we live in and we must make compromises until others see sense.
Hi my name is Shane Miles, I currently own Nikon DSLR's and old Kodak cameras, I will shoot with any camera I can get my hands on (I love a challenge)
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Roo - I am not having a go at you either but many years ago a boss I worked for had a foolproof way to stop shop lifting - do not open the doors each morning. Just the solution is not practical. Online stores have little or no shop lifting but they have other problems. You are right in a digital world - no one can control the dynamics of the content. All that you can do is try to control how you interact with it. While I am not FB giru, images you share with friends can be seen by friends of their friends and so forth and so on.The best way to stop that is never to share a photo.
In the film days as you quoted, unless you printed the images yourself, you never had complete control over the images, they could be copied in the lab, lost in the post, lost or misplaced by friends or family. To take things to the extreme, living as a hermit on an island with no access to the digital world would stop your concerns about images being shared but that would have other problems. Mobile phones, the internet and even Facebook are all recent innovations in respect to the history of the human race. There is no doubt technology is becoming faster and more people are connected globally. I thought long and hard about sharing that image (on the day I took around 600 images and probably less than 20 at the water feature). Some photos were taken at the Marvel Exhibition that was full of children and thousands of images taken others who attended. Some were taken on the walks (almost impossible to avoid people on any day). I was not asked to stop taking photos there nor was anyone else. I shared that photo as an example of my attempts to capture the sponteniety of the little boy playing with the water. At this stage no other picture has been shared at all. I decided to keep all inc ase I had a problem in the future and I was contacted.
While I am not sure, I suspect that the people who complained about me were not given any feedback to allay their concerns. I am reasonably confident that they feel they have done a community service and may have even told their family and friends about this weird old guy taking photos at Southbank. I posted this so that the records could be set straight and to encourage other people to consider the actions of other photographers if they encounter them in the future. Walk up to them and ask them about their photos, do it in a friendly and enquiring manner. I would have been happy to send them a copy if there was something they liked. I have done it previously will continue to share images if asked in the future.
Mark again with respect, you spoke about how things can be easily reversed, I am still confused as to why you think it is the parents duty to go to the photographer and ask them anything, after all the photographers is the one taking and I emphasize taking the pictures, so is it not polite and respectful of the parents feelings for the photographer to first ask or at least immediately after taking the images to approach them and explain what you are doing and tell them if they are not happy with it that you will delete the images in front of them so they know you no longer have a copy ?
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That is the most practical solution for numerous reasons and the parent is the person who has the concern not the photographer, the person with the child may not have the authority to give permission, the parents may not always be standing right next to the child and may be supervising from a distance so who is the correct poarent in a public place, thirdly the photographer is obvious - he is the one with the camera - parents don't wear labels with parent/guardian on it along with their child's name. Some parents may be less concerned about photos than others and another point is they are in a public place, permission is not required to take any photo in a public place - on private property that is a totally separate issue. A model/child release is not required for candid and personal shots and in some instances for competiton images.
I don't expect to change the your mind of anyone else's mind, what I do hope is that some people will consider the topic raised and be less concerned about having their photo taken in a public place.
Last edited by markdphotography; 19-08-2017 at 12:44am.
As I said I am not disagreeing with you as to the legality, in fact I totally agree and have done extensive research and made inquiries as to the legality of taking pictures in public places and Australia has no laws preventing you from doing so (as you have said). And again you do not need to change my mind as I am almost in total agreement with you, I am just saying that IF you know who the parents are of a child you are about to or already have taken pictures of I feel that it is much less likely to be a problem if you were to approach them, obviously IF you do not know who the parents are then that is a different situation and then it is up to you to make the call on whether or not to risk the wrath of unhappy parents.
I think people also need to realise.
1. Paedophiles do not want photos of kids clothed and doing normal kid stuff.
2. The vast majority of children exposed to something bad have it done so by someone known to them or their family.. not strangers!
3. Paedophiles who snatch children they do not know are rare, but they are mainstream media fodder. William Tyrell (possibly) and Daniel Morcombe. But almost every day children are removed from their parents due to abuse within the family, or close associates.
4. People are overly paranoid about paedophiles being 'everywhere' in their community. This is not the case.
5. I agree that where children's parents are identifiable, it is easy to ask and explain before taking any photos.
6. There are no laws re photographing children in public that differ from photographing adults in public.
My guess is that everyone posting in this thread has never personally known someone who has been convicted of paedophilia against a child unknown to them, but possibly there are members who know of someone who has been convicted of abuse, within a family, where they knew their victim. As photographer we need to be careful not to also fall into the media portrayal that everyone who is a stranger is a possible paedophile. Your concerns need to be focused on people you know, more than a stranger.
I have never posted this next statement on the internet before. It is part of who I am and really it is not anyone else's business. I think I am in a position to talk about paedophiles more than most in this thread, with first hand experience of what happens. But I do not let it define who I am as a person. I am a victim of a paedophile who was a stranger. In fact, since this happened to me in the 1970's there have only been about 4 cases of paedophiles who abused kids not known to them, in Tasmania. A paedophile who takes a child not known to them is rare..very rare. Yet there are hundred of cases in Tasmania alone of kids being abused by someone known to them, family, a family friend, neighbour etc. We all need to be more aware of this, and as photographers, educating people should become part of that. People need to be more afraid of someone they already know, than someone they do not know. If you want to know more about the person involved in my case, click here.
The best thing we can do as photographers, is talk, communicate, and educate. If you can explain why you are where you are, and what the purpose of the photos are for, most reasonable people will understand. However there are people in our society that have been abused, know someone who has, is hiding from a violent ex-partner etc and that have genuine reasons for not wanting their children photographed, and we need to respect that too. Having good verbal communications skills, is something photographers need when confronted about this by a parent.
"It is one thing to make a picture of what a person looks like, it is another thing to make a portrait of who they are" - Paul Caponigro
Constructive Critique of my photographs is always appreciated
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RICK
My Photography
Thanks Rick for being so brave and telling us about what happened to you.
This quote says it all, it is about communication
Last edited by Roane Photo; 19-08-2017 at 10:13am.
Sorry, but bravery has nothing to do with it. Every one of us has things in our life that partially define who we are. Some define their entire lives around a single or few events. I see doing that as the wrong way as it traps them in a place of being a victim. People use drug use, criminal behaviors, death of a family member etc as an excuse. It is not about being brave in the slightest. Parents confronting a photographer and accusing them of being a paedophile for photographing their children is not about bravery, it is about insecurity, mostly unfounded insecurity. We as a society are creating fears, that are misdirected in most cases. No wonder there are so many people that are often defined as 'broken', as we do not have rational discussions on so many topics.Thanks Rick for being so brave and telling us about what happened to you.
This quote says it all, it is about communication
I do not see myself as being brave for disclosing something that happened to me. It doesn't define who I am as a person, and nor should it.
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I think Rick summed up the reason for the post supported by examples of his own circumstances which I thank him for. This is exactly what the journalist stated. I did not have the ooportunity to speak to the parents they were not identifiable and maybe that was becouse of my focus/aperture on the subject, nor did they speak to me. The two security guards were very good, they did not ask for any proof of ID, to see the camera or anything, I offered all that information. I reckon they get lots of these calls per day. Probably they could see by the amount of gear that I had in my backpack that I was a serious photographer and no doubt I had been identified on the close circuit TV (which I have no problems with) as this will work for me as I did not break any laws. I thought for a while before posting this thread but as it was the third time (over several years admittedly) recently other photographers including women have had similar experiences, I wanted to start a discussion about the subject. I did not expect everyone to agree with me, I did look at it from the parent's perspective and discussed it with my daughter. The "I am a photographer not paedophile" line was taken from another high profile photographers have had and rather than wear a costume into parliament, I chose a photographic forum to discuss the topic.
Thank you to all those who have contributed, hopefully discussion will make more people aware of the situation from both sides.
I do look forward to the day when I can take photos of children in public and people are less concerned about my actions although I suspect that will be a long way in the future.
Last edited by markdphotography; 19-08-2017 at 1:00pm.
You see I think the difference from my perspective is that if it was my kids I would have confronted you and asked you not to take photos of my kids. Not judged you for doing so just asked you politely not to. I have done this many times in the past.
I totally agree that people that are going to hurt kids are the most likely known to them and their families. As I've stated most of my concerns are not about paedophiles. I am sorry you went through that Rick and thank you sharing your perspective.
One thing you do have to remember though is that times have changed and there are a lot more people around with gear. I don't know but it has become harder to distinguish a professional from an amateur and therefore someone wishing to do harm. On Ricks point about clothed children, I believe the original post was about taking pictures on Southbank in Brisbane. I would be very wary about being seen taking photos there as it as swimming pool and water park, a lot of young children in swimming attire there.
Call me Roo......
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Hi Roo and if you had of asked I would have respected your wishes.
As I mentioned previously, this was not at South Bank Beach - it was closed. I was there in April and took some discrete shots with my wide angle lens -
_DSC1252-Edit by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/100053981@N04/],
In that instance I was mindful of other people but it is almost impossible to get a shot showing the beach and the city without people in it at anytime of the year. It would be impractical to ban all photos at South Bank Beach.
In this instance the child had more clothes on than the sunbaker (albeit the subjects/concept was totally different) and this was at the water feature. Did you see the picutre I posted in this thread - sunsmart swimming attire.
I think part of the problem today is not so much worrying about the person taking the photos, but more to do what is going to happen to those photos. This applies to both adults and to children. Today due to social media your look is your brand - and you should be in control of your brand. This is very true when applying for jobs. The first thing a prospective employer does now is google your name to get an overall picture of who they plan to employ.
Young adults (and older adults) need to moderate their profile on social media. This is difficult to do if you are not in control of your own images. How many times has a politician or high profile business person been bought down by skeletons in the closet. This will happen more and more in the future as old photos come to surface because they were posted on social media by themselves or by other persons.
As a general rule I do not take photos of people without their permission. Although the photo above is a great photo, due to the people laying on the beach I would not take out my camera. If I was in their position I would not appreciate somebody taking my photo without my permission - I have no control over where you will post it (and therefore I have lost control of my brand).
On a side note, on one of my many visits to Cambodia I have photographed many smiling children. In cases like this I always make my intentions obvious and in doing so seek their permission (although one may argue they are not old enough to give me permission). In many cases I have photographed parents with children or have asked permission to photograph their children.
In one particular case I photographed some young children swimming in a creek in a village in Cambodia. The smile on a dark skinned child laughing and having fun was worth a million words. Once I returned home I deleted all but a couple of the photos. The reason being the children were scantly dressed (some younger ones had no costume). This is totally normal in Cambodian children and nobody bats and eyelid, but I just felt here in Australia if somebody noticed shots of scantly clad children on my hard disk this could only lead to undue suspicions and unnecessary explanations.
We live in the society we live in today - there are laws and there are unwritten rules. Unfortunately photographing people without their permission is not against the law, but it is against most peoples rules - maybe call it respect for our fellow human being. There are times when it is totally unavoidable (after all we are all photographed in shopping centers, banks, service stations, security cameras etc).
My opinion is you do not have the right to photograph somebody just because it is not against the law. If in doubt don't do it. If you want to take a photo of a scenery and you feel it might offend people who are in the photo either politely seek their permission (simply by nodding and showing your intention) or do not do it at that very moment. There is plenty in this world you can photograph without having to seek somebodies approval.
Just my 2c worth.
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I have found that people seem to be getting a little less #### about my taking photos of kids. I take quite a lot because my grandkids are playing sport a lot, and I take lots of photos, as do all the other parents/grandparents. I don't much like taking them at swimming events but in general I take photos of them wherever they are.
If you get accosted by a woman who presumes that you are a paedophile simply because you have the right equipment, ask her if she's a prostitute. I rest my case.
"If you want to be a better photographer, stand in front of more interesting stuff.” — Jim Richardson
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Thanks for your 2 cents worth Bob but with respect unfortunately not a practical solution/option for many other people other than you for several reasons. A bit like closing shops to stop shop lifting as mentione earlier. In small number of instances some people may need to be more midfulof their social media profile/content but the perecentage at a guess would not be measurable in respect to the total social media postings.
If an emloyer does not emply you only because of your social media profile - you probably did not want to work for them in any case. Googling a person's name maybe a tool in the application process but any savy employer would just not use social media to hire someone. In fact any company uses a wide range of tools wjhen making a recruitment decision.
Applying what you said there would actually be no photos of people without permission so as such no photos of people on the news, selfies would no longer exist unless you stood at an isolated location, no photos at public events, football matches, celebrations etc etc. As people we relate to images of other people so if you did not have permission to take the photo, it could not be shared as it may end up somewhere that you cannot control. MIT released some information about images of people in 2011 which is still true today I am sure see - http://news.mit.edu/2011/memorable-images-0524 under the heading - We tend to remember pictures of people much better than wide open spaces.
I would also suggest that most people are not concerned with their brand (and don't need to be), companies are concerned not but not all, some self employed are but once again if you are doing the right thing - social media is not a negative in relation to marketing your brand - what people think of it is possibly but you do not have control over that. As I mentioned previously, earlier that day I visited the Marvel Exhibition, Marvel do not seem to be worried about the brand/image of their property - maybe they use the addage any publicity is good publicity.
A fear of social media is also be a phobia just like islamaaphobia, homophobia and many other social and cultural phobias in my opinion. The fact is social media is here to stay and you work with it but trying to stop people using is a bit like stopping the analogue to digital photography evolution.
When my children were growing up I taught them about rights and agrred they had lots of rights. BUT with all rights comes responsibility, there is not right that does not have a responsibility attached to it. I was exercising my right to take pictures of people in public in a responsible manner. I can control that BUT I cannot control what or how other people react to that nor should I try.
I have been a keen photographer for almost 30 years and have tens of thousands of images on my computer. Some are scenes, objects, animals and even cemeteries and some with people. No one has anything to fear from these images even though a small number are shared on the web.
I respect your opinion but certainly do not agree with it. If we all stopped taking images of people in public, the world would be a much lonlier place.
Last edited by markdphotography; 19-08-2017 at 4:52pm.
This subject is an emotive topic and I have to agree with a lot of your points.
When my son was playing football I often stood on the sidelines with my DSLR and 300mm white lens and photographed him. In this case parents knew me (well his team member parents did). I felt comfortable and was never questioned in anyway. Quite often parents would come up and ask me to photograph their child also (although my interest was in photographing my own son). He then moved on to rowing and I used to find a comfortable spot on the Yarra and once again set up a telephoto lens and photograph him. In the second instance one of the couches approached and ask me what I was doing? Before I had even had a chance to explain he told me if I don't move on he would call the police. Once I had the chance to explain to him my son was rowing he was ok with the whole situation. I could understand his concern, and I am glad we come to a mutual understanding. It really come down to what was the purpose of the photos - he was quick to understand they were family treasures.
In another instance I was asked to photography my niece's basketball grand final. I was reminded (via a loud speaker announcement) I needed to get permission from both coaches before I could fulfill this request. Once again no problems and the results were shared with both teams.
I suppose in all cases above I was not out of place and not truly a stranger. I don't think in any instance I would get the same reception if I decided I wanted to get some great photographs through the fence of the local primary school. I don't think there is a specific law stopping me from doing it - but by doing it I think you are only inviting trouble.
In the end I think there is a time and a place to photograph people - just be sensible about it and try to see the other person's point of view. There have been many cases where an image has been stolen from social media or via a repaired hard disk and used inappropriately elsewhere.
Not anyone's business indeed, but it does illustrate that these issues impact people throughout the community, and one can never assume that the person next to you is not a "victim" (for want of a better word). I disagree that this is not a "brave" thing to have told us, because I think it is. Opening up publicly to personal issues, and potentially exposing oneself to public assessment is always a brave action and I applaud that sort of courage.
The issue of paedophilia is one of those fraught conversations because our views on the subject can be coloured by our life experiences. Protecting children is (or should be) an instinctive reaction, but assessing the risk is something that isn't easy. Mothers are universally protective of their young in most species (leaving aside guppies who eat their young for lunch). However, that instinctive maternal (and paternal) desire to protect their young needs to be tempered with a realistic assessment of the risk. That's where I think society sometimes falls down, and in the rush to be seen to be doing the right thing, too often that risk is exaggerated. No parent wants to be seen as doing too little to protect their own, and that's when photographers become the unwitting victims of suspicion and over zealous parenting.
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Just came across this today on a photo blog and think it is a good idea. Maybe if we all went out and did this and got all other photographers to do the same thing we may change their idea about photographers in a public place.
Taking 30 Street Portraits of Complete Strangers in 2 Hours - https://petapixel.com/2017/08/17/tak...eid=48c101d630
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Hours - https://petapixel.com/2017/08/17/tak...eid=48c101d630[/QUOTE]
I want to work with this idea to improve the image of photographers (male and female) as well as improve my photography and people skills (hopefully). How to do this is something I have been pondering this for a little while.
At present I have registered the domain www.streetmeet.com.au and have set it up and adding some images from various events I have photographed - Brisbane Zombie Walk, History Alive 2017 and 2016. As I capture more images they will be uploaded to the website. I will get some business cards printed and give to strangers when I ask them if I can take their photo. The two hour time period will be less important but the key thing will be to take photos of complete strangers.
Here is the catcher - how can you help?
If I set up a Flickr Group, photographers can upload images to Flickr Group. I can install an Ap that will upload the images from the Flickr Group to the Street Meet website (that is what happens now with my images). This site appears to be working alright now and figure it will be better to have more than just my images on the streetmeet.com.au site.
It will be a real challenge to ask strangers to take their photo but worth a shot for a while and see how it goes.
This topic is one of the main reasons I restrict my photography to cars mostly. If I have pictures of people or kids they are people I know very well.
It's disappointing that I need to take this stance, however people are irrational and are only getting worse.
I agree with the views of photographers in here that are just trying to take the best picture they can.
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