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Thread: An NBN Question...

  1. #21
    can't remember Tannin's Avatar
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    Apparently not, Am. I'm not across the detail but I possibly there are regulated charges for roaming, which would go nowhere near compensating for the actual cost.

    But we don't need to know the legislative detail, we can work the realities out just by thinking it through from a business point of view. The cost of all that high-tech equipment being used by just the handful of people in the outback at any one time is such that even the telco with by far the largest number of customers to amortise the investment over (Telstra) doesn't go anywhere near covering its outback service costs. Adding some small amount from the (relatively tiny) customer base of an Optus or a Vodafail would be a drop in the bucket. (Remember that if you gave (say) 1 million Vodafail customers roaming rights onto the Telstra network, the number who would actually use the outback towers so much as once in any given year might be ... oh ... perhaps a couple of thousand. Even if you charged them an outrageous $10 per call, that's twenty grand - an utterly trivial amount which wouldn't even cover the administrative cost of billing them. (Add a few zeros to my estimate if you like - it's still not enough to make a worthwhile difference.)

    Telstra, on the other hand, can spread that cost across their entire customer base. All Telstra customers (no matter whether they live in Balmain or Brunswick or Birdsville) pay the so-called "Telstra tax" which, among other things, goes to fund the outback network. Telstra is by far the most expensive major mobile service provider. How do they get away with it? By having the best network. Without a clear network advantage, Telstra could not charge their 10 or 15 million customers Telstra's usual 10-20% over the going rate. From Telstra's point of view, the millions they lose each year maintaining uneconomic outback services is repaid with interest by the massive marketing advantage it gives them. In short, they would be completely crazy to ever let an Optus or a TPG use their outback towers. All of a sudden, they would have to compete on price instead of quality - and any business that is reduced to competing on price alone is usually doomed to failure.

    Put it another way: if the Telstra board decided to give a competitor outback roaming rights, they'd spend the next three years defending class actions from angry shareholders - and almost certainly losing.

    Of course, Optus, VHA, and TPG are perfectly entitled to build their own towers if they wish, and they do - but only in places where they can anticipate a reasonable return on their investment. For them, it would be completely useless spending hundreds of millions improving their outback coverage because, in reality, they are not going to go close to equalling the reach of the Telstra network without spending insane amounts. And if they go crazy on spending and started getting anywhere near Telstra, what would stop Telstra putting up another hundred towers just to stay in front of them? Nothing. It would cost a bit, sure, but because of their huge existing advantage, Telstra is always going to be well-placed to win a spending war without even raising a sweat. The boards of the other two (soon to be three) mobile operators know all this, of course, and aren't daft enough to start a war they know they cannot win. (But, as we have just seen, they are bang alongside the idea of persuading the authorities to simply gift it to them. Who wouldn't like to get the use of some other company's very expensive capital equipment without paying for it? Bit of a no-brainer. You'd be nuts not to try it on.)

    In short, the current situation cannot and will not change without legislation. Given the number of retired people with large amounts of their savings held in Telstra shares and depending on those fully-franked dividends for their living expenses, it would be a brave government which acted on this. (Look at the flack they took after putting a very, very minor extra tax on banks this year - a tax so small that share prices only dipped for a short while and rapidly recovered.)

    Is this a sensible way to run a country's telecommunication network? Of course not. Telecommunications is a natural monopoly and, like all natural monopolies, it works best and stays cheapest when an organisation tasked with operating in the public interest and owned by the entire nation operates it. Unfortunately, we went through a period of economic madness between about 1980 and 2005 or so and gave away our hard-won assets to greedy private interests. The result has been disastrous. Telecommunication got worse and worse and worse until the original NBN effectively renationalised the fixed-line component and restored some sanity. (Far from perfect, and now crippled by cheapskate reversion to outdated copper for most of it, but vastly better than anything on the horizon in the pre-NBN era.) And as for the spectacular failure of a similar sell-it-all-off policy in the electricity sector, nothing I can say is remotely as persuasive as the very large numbers on your latest bill.
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  2. #22
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    Ah, profiteering! - From ALL sides
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    I have Telstra. Wireless NBN 25ms ping, 10.73 Mbps download and 4.59 Mbps upload.

    Ross.
    Ross. Nikon D810, Nikon D300s, Nikkor 18-200, , Nikon 105mm Micro lens. Nikon 200-500mm lens

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    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    My suburb got the NBN in 2013... well some of it, cause part way through the build they decided to cut the suburb in half and so I don't have the NBN. Well at the end of June, with much fanfare, the NBN was turned on for my half of the suburb. So off I goes to arrange to get it connected... ha bluddy ha.

    So far, since 3rd July (when I first booked an apppointment for the NBN Co to come and do my installation), I have booked and had cancelled 17 appointments. So at this point in time I have given up even trying to get it. My ISP blames NBN Co, the NBN Co is blaming my ISP. Either way it seems they are conspiring to ensure i cannot book an appointment no matter how much I try and re-try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricktas View Post
    My suburb got the NBN in 2013... well some of it, cause part way through the build they decided to cut the suburb in half and so I don't have the NBN. Well at the end of June, with much fanfare, the NBN was turned on for my half of the suburb. So off I goes to arrange to get it connected... ha bluddy ha.

    So far, since 3rd July (when I first booked an apppointment for the NBN Co to come and do my installation), I have booked and had cancelled 17 appointments. So at this point in time I have given up even trying to get it. My ISP blames NBN Co, the NBN Co is blaming my ISP. Either way it seems they are conspiring to ensure i cannot book an appointment no matter how much I try and re-try.

    Wow - 17 broken appointments - how sad.

    Someone in the respective organisation at fault should own this, get hold of it and fix it.

    Good luck!

    Cheers

    Dennis

  6. #26
    can't remember Tannin's Avatar
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    Rick - wow! That's a disgrace. I'd be writing to your MP about that.

    My own experience with two different NBN installations was the opposite. In both cases, they turned up at the agreed time, did the job, and everything worked first time.

    Two little tales to add to this. The rules about cabling are quite clear. If you have an underground phone line, the new line goes underground. If you have an existing overhead line or no line at all, the NBN fibre goes overhead. No exceptions. I had an overhead phone line (which has always been an eyesore and a nuisance because it is so low - it's a small house set well back on a large block so the wires dip quite a lot and it's easy to hit them with, for example, garden tools). So I rang them to find out how much extra it would cost to have it underground. Just a rough idea would have done. If it was (say) $300, I'd be happy to pay for it. If it was $3000, not a chance. But no-one could answer. I got shuffled from department to department, call your ISP, no call NBN Co, round and round. I spent a couple of days on the telephone without result. Eventually, on NBN Co advice, I delayed the install by 6 months because they though that might bring clarity. It didn't. The only very vague hint I got was that it might be very expensive.

    So I gave up and decided I'd just have to put up with an overhead cable.

    Meanwhile, I met a customer who had exactly the opposite problem. He'd just been to a heap of trouble landscaping his garden and wanted an overhead line. Nope, says NBN Co, it has to be underground. You have no choice. We wished we could ring them up and arrange a swap!

    The day before the work at my place was to commence, as arranged, the NBN Co foreman arrived to eyeball the site. He glanced at the long, low existing utility cables and said "I'm sorry mate. I'm afraid we are going to have to put it underground. It won't cost you anything but we will have to dig up your garden." I reckoned that was a very good time for me to shut up!

    Second story. When they lay the fibre-optic cable, it goes inside a protective sheath, which in turn is inside a length of conduit, all at the bottom of a trench. At the wall of the house, it comes up and, still protected by conduit, into a small white box. From there they drill a hole through the wall to the inside box and feed the cable through. Curiously, they don't protect the part of the cable which goes through the wall. That seemed a bit weird.

    Sure enough, my spiffy new NBN service lasted exactly one week. Then dead. I was furious with Telstra, because it went off at the exact same time they switched my phone service over from the shop to my house. Obviously, they had stuffed it up at the exchange and now I had no phone at either end, and no Internet at home. Poor Telstra - it was nothing to do with them. They eventually sent the same two NBN Co technicians who had installed it. They disassembled the boxes and one of them, in his broken English, showed my the tiny fibre-optic cable. "Can you see?" he said, "It is the bite of a mouse."

    Well, it is a 130-year-old wooden house, of course there are mice. But the policy was to simply replace the cable. "Won't it happen again?" I asked. They said "Yes, probably. Ring up your ISP and they will send us around to fix it."

    "Why not put some conduit in so you don't have to come back?"

    "Is not policy. Unless maybe three times."

    Sigh. What can you do. And, sure as sunrise, it lasted exactly a week. Again. This time, I pulled the box apart myself, drilled a new, bigger hole through the wall, and glued in a length of conduit. (Actually a bit of garden hose I had lying around spare.) I figured that since it was already broken, I couldn't get into trouble for messing anything up. (I've spent a lifetime working with computers but don't know anything about how to handle fibre-optic cable.)

    Same two blokes turned up, approved of my home-made conduit, rewired it, and it's worked perfectly ever since.

    But they commute to Ballarat from their base in Melbourne. They would get to more than one job in a day, of course, but on a conservative guess, it would cost NBN Co maybe $500 for each extra visit. So their policy not to fit 5 cents worth of plastic conduit cost them something like $1000. Go figure the economics of that.

  7. #27
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    That's what we get for living in the MALARKY Country
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    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by merlin1 View Post
    I have Telstra. Wireless NBN 25ms ping, 10.73 Mbps download and 4.59 Mbps upload.

    Ross.
    Pitiful, isn't it!! - And they call it NBN

    My cable is typically 10-12pigs, 30/1.5. Sadly, this (relative) Nirvana
    will not last much longer

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmm! I really meant "pings" before, but maybe...
    Last edited by ameerat42; 29-07-2017 at 10:49pm.

  8. #28
    Ausphotography Regular Hawthy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=merlin1;1418389]I have Telstra. Wireless NBN 25ms ping, 10.73 Mbps download and 4.59 Mbps upload.

    We are on ADSL2 here and the good old Ookla speed test shows 24 ms ping, 6.83 mbps download and 0.22 mbps upload. That sounds slow but we have no problems downloading 4K videos via Netflix or running four computers at once on wi-fi. Maybe I am missing something? NBN are cabling the area right now but not sure that I really want to change. I know that I will have to but it seems ok to me.
    Last edited by Hawthy; 29-07-2017 at 11:14pm.
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  9. #29
    can't remember Tannin's Avatar
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    I seldom bother measuring speed: either you don't notice it (in which case it's plenty) or you do (in which case it's not enough). But just for fun, Ookla gives me 4ms ping, 16.65 down and 4.82 up. That's on Telstra NBN fibre. No idea what my contract says I get. Don't really care so long as it doesn't annoy me, which it doesn't, so that's fine.

  10. #30
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    Some interesting NBN stories. Our's was painless. We already had reasonable speed as we had Foxtel cable. So Telstra rings us and makes an appointment. All cool with that. The tech turns up on time and it is a painless process new cable unit and wireless modem. Then my wife arranges the rest of it. We now are paying less a month than before. We have 100/40 and it is often close to that speed. 1000gig a month. We still have foxtel, Stan and Netflix for about 80/ month less. Been a couple of glitches which they have fixed quickly. One trick thier tech department taught me, is to regularly reset the modem. Takes up to 10 minutes but it does fix a few simple problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephendean View Post
    Some interesting NBN stories. Our's was painless. We already had reasonable speed as we had Foxtel cable. So Telstra rings us and makes an appointment. All cool with that. The tech turns up on time and it is a painless process new cable unit and wireless modem. Then my wife arranges the rest of it. We now are paying less a month than before. We have 100/40 and it is often close to that speed. 1000gig a month. We still have foxtel, Stan and Netflix for about 80/ month less. Been a couple of glitches which they have fixed quickly. One trick thier tech department taught me, is to regularly reset the modem. Takes up to 10 minutes but it does fix a few simple problems.
    This is what I'm hoping will be my situation. Only time will tell.
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    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Soooo....

    After yet more cancelled NBN appoinments, I am now apparently waiting on confirmation of an appointment on the 8th August...BUT... This text message arrived whilst I was on the phone to my ISP this morning ?!?! I shall now wait and see what happens. What's the bet I get a 'you were not home so we could not install your NBN' note stuck under my door or in my mailbox on the 28th August.
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    What's in a Surname?...

    Preamble...
    Today a letter arrived in our letterbox, addressed with an incorrect
    version of the first name and a comPLETEly dIFFerent surname that was
    NOTHing like ameerat42, though the address was correct.

    The sender had hand-written it was from LendLease
    After a few minutes I decided to open it anyway.

    Inside was just a pamphlet giving notice of connection to the NBN via
    Hybrid Fibre Coaxial. I wondered if this was because we have Optus
    cable BB here already

    Anyway, there was no number back to LL, only to the NBNCo, so I
    could not ask about the name.

    Question...
    Is anybody connected using this HFC method? What's it like?
    Last edited by ameerat42; 11-08-2017 at 1:47pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ameerat42 View Post
    Preamble...
    Today a letter arrived in our letterbox, addressed with an incorrect
    version of the first name and a comPLETEly dIFFerent surname that was
    NOTHing like ameerat42, though the address was correct.

    The sender had hand-written it was from LendLease
    After a few minutes I decided to open it anyway.

    Inside was just a pamphlet giving notice of connection to the NBN via
    Hybrid Fibre Coaxial. I wondered if this was because we have Optus
    cable BB here already

    Anyway, there was no number back to LL, only to the NBNCo, so I
    could not ask about the name.

    Question...
    Is anybody connected using this HFC method? What's it like?
    This will just be using your current coax which is what your current Optus is using. Most people will be fibre to a node then "normal" copper from there to the house. You and I have "cable" so they use this "cable" for the final bit of connection and call it HFC. Mine is Telstra. At least this is what I have gleaned from reading on the NBN site.

    I can't directly answer your question, and will be interested to know too. But assuming they don't stuff up the connection point between fibre and coax, it should be no worse than you a currently have in terms of its potential performance as a system. How it works in reality when managed by whatever provider is used, will be another thing.

  15. #35
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    Ta, Ham.
    The info they sent puzzled me, because some time ago I got an Optus missive "from which I understood" that
    they would not be using their cable. I guess as the time nears... [the picture may clarify]
    --or not!

  16. #36
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    As I understand it, the current plan is to use the existing optical fibre/coax (HFC) where it is in good condition. After all, it already serves some 2.5 million premises! It would be wasteful in the extreme to ignore it's existence! That was exactly what was originally proposed ...

    Our existing HFC broadband has a download speed of around 115 Mbps. Limited by the exchange equipment (servers/routers etc).

  17. #37
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    Ta, John. I wonder wattle happen here?

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    Am, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Optus cable (HFC) network from the 1990s is in pretty bad shape. However in most areas served by the existing HFC network, both Optus and Telstra run in parallel. After the switchover I expect the NBN to use whichever one is in good nick. We have two HFC systems here, and that's a commonplace!

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    Hmm! Can't remember when our area was cabled. Usual case of "Dunnowatts", I suppose.
    When they said the time frame, I remember it was anywhere in the next 8-9 months.

  20. #40
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    it looks like if your in an area that is getting HFC, and you don't currently have a HFC connection, then you get put to the bottom of the connection list... the priority is those who already have the cable going to their house...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ameerat42 View Post
    Today a letter arrived in our letterbox, addressed with an incorrect
    version of the first name and a comPLETEly dIFFerent surname that was
    NOTHing like ameerat42, though the address was correct.

    The sender had hand-written it was from LendLease
    After a few minutes I decided to open it anyway.

    Inside was just a pamphlet giving notice of connection to the NBN via
    Hybrid Fibre Coaxial. I wondered if this was because we have Optus
    cable BB here already
    I think you'll find that once NBN is activated in your area, you may start to get letters from lots of wannabe ISP's seeking your business.

    I know we've received about 3 pamphlets from 3 separate companies telling us that NBN is now active in our area, and to "call this number" to arrange for connection... But I'd already pre-ordered with my current ISP... unfortunately I don't currently have foxtel cable... so I've been told there is currently no ETA on when I'll be connected
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