Go the Trumpster?

[jim]

Perhaps that is true, but really outside the frame of reference. I guess it depends upon the time-frame that we are considering. In the overall scheme of things, and on the timescale of infinity, then it's true that the Earth isn't much more than an atom in comparison to the Universe. However, we can only realistically consider the time of Man, infinitesimal though that might be. So on a practical level we need to focus on the here and now, meaning the foreseeable future of our planet and ourselves. With that period in our sights, all I am saying is that although our capacity to control the future is extremely limited, anything we can do to preserve our environment should be a priority.

It seems we're talking about different things, but when we talk about the same thing we're in agreement.

[bobt]

I am losing faith in US democracy that only allows the rich to get elected. I hope that never happens here.

Oh they allow more than just the rich. They accept stupid people as well, but then so do we.

[Steve Axford]

Perhaps that is true, but really outside the frame of reference. I guess it depends upon the time-frame that we are considering. In the overall scheme of things, and on the timescale of infinity, then it's true that the Earth isn't much more than an atom in comparison to the Universe. However, we can only realistically consider the time of Man, infinitesimal though that might be. So on a practical level we need to focus on the here and now, meaning the foreseeable future of our planet and ourselves. With that period in our sights, all I am saying is that although our capacity to control the future is extremely limited, anything we can do to preserve our environment should be a priority.

I agree. I believe that we are only important to ourselves and we need to be responsible without any assumption that somebody else thinks we are important, and will look after us. They won't We are alone and we'd best look out for ourselves - and that doesn't mean in the trump way, that means cooperting to do the best for all of us.

[arthurking83]

Arthur, You clearly have some gripes with the Chinese government ...

Not specifically no!
But on the one hand they give the outward appearance of doing something for the climate by agreeing to this "Paris Accord", yet behind the scenes they refuse to cut production in those antiquated steel plants that produce excessive carbon emissions, even by pre 1900's standards... and the final sub par quality product is produced at a financial loss to boot! They (force)dump it on the world market simply to eliminate the competition ... their only goal being to monopolise the market in the future.

Yeah, sure they put up solar panels to show the world they're going 'green', but at what hidden cost?
Can't begin to imagine the working conditions for the poor souls labouring to produce 'sub par' again solar panels .. once again for the purpose of monopolising the solar panel market for world dominance in the future .. again!

This is whey they'll end up pushing for Paris Accord goals, or even stricter emissions reductions.
They need to enforce some kind of mandated requirement for many countries to adopt renewable energy sources to force the markets to adopt renewable tech. It just so happens that they manufacture those renewable technologies .. but in the background produce far more pollution during the production phase of those renewable systems, than the renewable tech is supposed to save!

For the Chinese government it's all about showing the world how clean they're going to be, meanwhile hidden in the no go zones, are the pre 1900 era smokehouses that power their booming economy.
Who's policing their emissions targets?
We can be fairly confident that our EPA is not dictated too by the government in power at the time.
If there is a failure in the EPA department, we can usually rely on a generally independent and outspoken press to highlight those deficiencies.
I doubt very much that the equivalent Chinese government EPA service isn't dictated too by the powers that be in the government .. and if there was a failing of the emissions overseer in China, which new agency is willing to take the Chinese government to task!

It's all reeking of British colonialism all over again, 200 years on, which itself is a throwback to the Roman empire 1800 years before it. With the dilution of the British Empire rises American colonialism (about 70 years ago), and the Chinese want in on that pie too.
In a nutshell .. who controls what? .. What we think, what we buy. For the Americans it's what laws we're going to be allowed to follow.
For the Chinese, it's all about what products we're going to be allowed to buy. Pay for a few MP's travel expenses ... bribe a few more on the other side with expensive gifts .. and next thing you know, we get zero tariffs on all imported goods from that country and they get minimal tariffs on a few select exports to their country.

The reference back to TSq, Tibet and South China Sea colonisation is simply to highlight the Chinese government's total lack of and disregard for world order and respect.
Do you really think that Chinese acceptance of the Paris Accord has anything to do with controlling carbon emissions?
Any such thoughts are a delusion.
Their only interest in Paris is about the business it will generate for them in terms of added output. How else will they continue their 8% GDP increase over the coming generation?
There's only so much crappy steel the world needs(or wants .. or can even tolerate!), crappy plastic goods that break on opening the packaging was always only a temporary income stream for them, while they endeavour to perfect the production of goods to reliable standards.
Happened to Japan 40-50 years ago .. if you spoke of Japanese made goods, they were looked down on back then as sub par .. crappily made rubbish, just as we do now with crappy made Chinese products.
Their plan is to monopolise goods production first .. just like the Japanese did. Then they'll be in the position to dominate world financial control ... just like the Japanese did about 20-30 odd years ago.
make no mistake, the Paris agreement to the Chinese is all about doing more business for them. Nothing to do with climate. They care as much about the climate as does Trump!
Caring about the climate doesn't produce a stream of trillions in income. Producing products that require the rest of the world to be cleaner does.

No offence to Chinese folks out there, but until their government allows an open and free press, reforms the government system to an open and free type, and floats their currency .. all actions taken by the government should be viewed as as having an ulterior motive and hidden agendas.

[Steve Axford]

Yep, you do have a gripe. Start another thread.

[arthurking83]

Yep, you do have a gripe. Start another thread.

Nope .. I can assure you I don't.

I may have just misplaced my rose coloured glasses
(actually I do have a gripe .. that they've allowed the production of sub par products, totally devoid of the notion of quality ... for such a long period of time)

Love or hate US politics and their generally corrupt business practises .. at least they have an open press.
If they didn't, do you reckon we'd be hearing about James Covey type news items. Do you reckon we'd have ever heard about Watergate, Reagan's hostages for arms deal .. or Clinton lying about his infidelities?

When was the last time you heard about corrupt Chinese political behaviour.
Realistically .. how many millions of people in the party system in China, and not a single corrupt politician?
An untrustworthy government can not be trusted .. end of story!

In your OP you asked:

.... With his latest withdrawal from the Climate Change Accords, I'm wondering if people think this is a move that will be good for anyone in the world. ....

Just because you suffer Trumpophobia, and hence by definition biased against anything Trump does, you should also question the other side of the equation.
Chinese acceptance of Paris, will probably do more harm to the common good than Trumps non acceptance of it!

ps. for the sake of clarity, I'm also a confirmed follower of the anti Trump movement. Jaw dropped at the news he beat H.Clinton!
Clinton herself can't be trusted, but as the lesser of two evils is the best case scenario by default, she wins hands down!
I live in the hope that the James Covey/Russiagate controversy is just the beginning of the end for the Trumpster!.. or that any anti Trump new item is the beginning of the end for him


.. anyhow, I'll start my own thread then .. look out for the Paris, unicorns and pots of gold at the end of rainbows thread title.

[Nick Cliff]

The thing with climate change and trying to save the future survival of our species in the is we can forget the people that have foregone a comfortable life in the world of science who have chosen a path of living a good life to try and help their fellow man despite death threats, jail and legal action and massive job insecurity in our so called free world.
When they lose their jobs they then become another doctor, lawyer, teacher or businessman, that is the free market at work. The interesting mindset that these people are parasites amazes me, I recall when I was at school being told I had no right to be there because my father was a scientist and he was in effect a parasite. This guy went on to become the school captain, the right stuff apparently. His farm was saved by science using biological controls to save his family from ruin, yet he could not see the importance of this very rare scientific intellect beyond the farm gate.
I hope we are over this mindset that these people in the scientific community "hate their fellow humans" as some politicians have asserted because they are the people taking the risks with job insecurity and or death threats and legal actions in the free world and I hope in Trumps America this does not continue with this anti scientific method and dangerous alternative facts mindset that is now starting to gain acceptance in the USA.
The reason I mention this is I recall Churchill saying that in life only a few people are capable of doing the heavy lifting.
China has a way to go with developing a culture that uses the scientific method well and this is a problem with their system of government.
The world I feel is transitioning gradually to more rational dialog on dealing with climate chaos now as the predictions for climate change become apparent.
Insurance companies have a more realistic view of what the future holds, good luck on keeping your insurance policies at a minimum if you live in areas of flooding as I am aware of in Brisbane now.
So in essence we need China with it's remarkable ability to manufacture affordable solar panels etc.. and adapt very rapidly to technological updates, this kind of engineering they do extremely well.
The USA is a nation of such diversity and bravery, there is so much good and bad with a nation basically were most decisions are largely based on business as we know.
The USA is transitioning out of coal with I understand 400 coal fired power plants shut down or closing in the near future while I have seen reports China is still building in the order of another 200 coal fired power stations and India similar numbers so Adani will need our coal for another 50 years or so if they keep these power station running for their full operational capability.
Personally these coal fired power plants do not worry me too much as the cost of solar power and power storage technology is dropping so dramatically that I cannot see how coal fired power stations will survive without government subsidies in the future as we are starting to see here in Oz.
So I do not see the USA as being the bad boy here with climate action, perhaps we need more balanced reporting and fact checking as Steve says when we read any news, I find google is good.

cheers Nick

[Steve Axford]

I'll not try to reply to all your gripes, Arthur, as I am no expert on China, but I have now been there 4 times and I have the distinct impression that they are changing fast - and generally for the better. When I first went in 2001 they seemed very backward and rural minorities seemed to get a very bad deal, but things are changing.
I'll give you an example. The Chinese government, like many governments, realised that the mass migration of rural people into the cities was going to cause major problems, so they did something. They go to rural villages and build them new houses to live in and new roads so they can get their produce to market. And it works. They people are much happier as they don't want to move to the city and now they are more affluent as they can sell their produce which commands a good price in the cities. Of course, some policies get twisted out of shape or are bad. They have decided (they being the Chinese government), that 20% of the land area will be forest by 2020. An ambitious target! In areas where there are no trees it is good as people get subsidised to plant forests, but in forested areas they sometimes cut down the native forest and replant with rubber (or other monoculture) in order to get the subsidy. My point is not that they are perfect, but that they are improving rapidly. The USA, on the other hand, is going backwards. I hope this will stop soon, but it does make us all nervous (well, most of us).
My travels to China has made me see them as people the same as we are, and to understand a little of their history over the last 100 years. In Yunnan (which I know best), they were outside of the Japanese invasion, but only just. The Japanese tried to destroy them by bombing their cities with bombs containing things like cholera, anthrax and bubonic plague. Plague lasted there until the 50s and some cities were uninhabitable until then. Yunnan was also a crucial area in the Chinese civil war and the Long March. Then they had the famines under Mao. Life has been very tough for quite a long time. It is amazing how things have changed. I should say that my recent visits to China have been at the invitation of the Kunming Institute of Botany, to photograph fungi in their forests. To do this we spend time in rural villages and get a feel for what life is like there. There are no tourists at those locations, though I don't think they are banned.