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Thread: Is it a problem?

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    Ausphotography Veteran martycon's Avatar
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    Is it a problem?

    By chance I noted that my PS Elements 11 was said to occupy 2.59gig on HD. This was observed when deleting another Adobe program, (sorry application), in the appropriate part of Windows10 Control panel, programs etc.
    PSE11 has crashed a couple of times recently, and I wondered if these may be related, hence the thread title. Any comment how the App could occupy way more than it used to?

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    Ausphotography Regular John King's Avatar
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    Its catalogue will grow over time. My Bridge cache is over 30 GB ...
    Regards, john

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    Thanks for your reply. I had thought that the image files remained in the folders which I originally created on my hard drive quite some years ago. Of course these have migrated through a few computers. Perhaps only facsimiles are in the caches. If I can find the location of the cache, I will empty it if I can be sure files in original location will be unaffected. I suppose I could add a second 500gig hard drive dedicated to only things photographic,but that would involve a few hours to do, and possibly many more correcting errors in so doing. Tis a PIA but all new and a challenge.

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    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martycon View Post
    Thanks for your reply. I had thought that the image files remained in the folders which I originally created on my hard drive quite some years ago. Of course these have migrated through a few computers. Perhaps only facsimiles are in the caches. If I can find the location of the cache, I will empty it if I can be sure files in original location will be unaffected. ....
    Cache files are always deletable without any due harm to the originals, nor any saved edited versions.

    I have a dedicated HDD just for cache(and other flotsam) that I regularly delete, format and defrag.


    The only real use for the cache area is that if you re open a file again at a later date, the data for that file is already in a memory area with all the settings applied to how you left that file.
    So the only benefit is one of speed.

    Nikon's Capture NX2 benefits greatly from having a separated cache(that is, on a separate HDD to the one where the actual file is).
    I dunno how well Ps Elements works with a separated cache.
    I did have Ps(CS6) for a while and set the cache to my dedicated cache drive, and didn't really notice all that much performance differences(working with 200Mb tiff files from the D800E).

    From what I remember of Ps, it saved cache files and other temp data in your user app data folders(Windows obviously).
    Can't be 100% sure as I set my copy to cache files to my cache drive .. but:

    check in C:\Users\<your PC user name>\App Data
    (note that you must have a setting in Windows Explorer that displays system files and hidden folders, or you won't see this folder!)
    Under App Data there will(or should be) three other folders: Local, LocalLow and Roaming.
    In each of those three folders will be one Adobe folder. Check each one to see what's there .. usually it's just a ton of bloat!

    I always delete those folders when Ps has driven me insane(for whatever reason).
    You won't do any harm to your installation of Ps if you remove the entire directory of Adobe stuff in there.
    All it does is that it loses already set info within the program .. eg. recent file history lists, or any user defined settings .. etc.

    Assuming that you have a 64bit install of Ps, go to C:\Programs\Adobe\<look for Ps or Elements or whatever it's called>

    * note if there is nothing there in the \Program files folder, then check \Program Files x86(it'll be just below the \Program files listing)

    All you need to do is right click and select properties and it'll tell 'ya how much space the actual folder is using.
    if it's only (say) 300Mb .. then you know the cache is located elsewhere.
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    Ausphotography Regular John King's Avatar
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    Gidday Arthur

    One problem with deleting Bridge cache files is that it automatically rebuilds the cache next time you use it. On my main workstation, this takes around 14-16 hours ... I assume that PSE does the same if it is set up to use catalogs.

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    Thank you Arthur I will start looking and doing.

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    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post
    Gidday Arthur

    One problem with deleting Bridge cache files is that it automatically rebuilds the cache next time you use it. On my main workstation, this takes around 14-16 hours ... I assume that PSE does the same if it is set up to use catalogs.
    I'm a total Adobe noob, so you'd know more about this stuff than I do .. but!

    I have used Bridge, although in a very limited way, but when I open it(or opened it!) it only built the cache files for the folders I opened.
    That is, it didn't take 14 hours to build the cache, it created a bunch of files(jpgs) in the cache folder of my cache drive only.

    I dunno what other processes it does in the background tho .. I never used it in the manner it's supposed to be used(ie. cataloguing stuff).

    I wouldn't have thought that Bridge would use temporary data locations to build up it's file lists(such as a cache location) .. and instead it would store it's important data(such as a database for catalogs) in one of the user app data folders it would create.


    Actually, I went searching for it and found this info on the Adobe website about where the Bridge cache is located by default:

    Windows: /Documents and Settings/[User name]/Application Data/Adobe/Bridge CS[version number]/Cache/full
    Also! .. that it's limited to only 500,000 files(for whatever reason! )
    And that the cache seems to be the important data location for the information that it relies upon .. so yeah! If you rely on Bridge be careful of the cache.

    This is a little different to how a cache area is normally used .. eg. as to how Ps or CaptureNX2 uses the cache.
    The cache area is usually created to store large files into a temporary area so as to not always keep these files in RAM(for speedier processing). The files in cache area are usually temporal files only being updated/saved as necessary. eg. is you save a file, it will be saved to cache first immediately and then saved to the location of your choice within the save menu of the software.
    Alternatively you can set up a program to auto-save a file every 5mins(or whatever) for possible file corruption purposes . eg. as in a blackout situation.
    I do that for M$ Excel, as my accounts files are critical to me .. can't afford to lose that data!

    So for Bridge to use the cache as the location of it's 'critical' data is a bit backward really .. going by the standard definition of a cache file in all other software.
    It'd make much more sense for Adobe to rename this cache area(in Bridge) to something that sounds more critical and important .. ie. database! .. as all other cataloguing software programs do!

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    Ausphotography Regular John King's Avatar
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    Hey, Arthur, don't even think about getting me started on the shortcomings of Bridge's data files, design and structure! It's ugly, f'ugly!!

    However, it does write standard keywords to the files themselves, rather than keeping this important data separately in a (sometimes) connected database as LightRoom does.

    Bridge is extremely useful and powerful. It allows all sorts of things to be done, such as processing a RAW file without opening PS ...

    BUT, and it's a big 'but', it doesn't keep these data as any kind of binary tree or even as lists and lookup tables ... They would have been better off using SQL Server, but probably didn't want to pay the license fee to MS, or whoever ...

    Bridge does save these data to local cache files as well as to the central cache and into the image files themselves (or .XMP sidecar files, in the case of non-DNG RAW files). However, it only saves certain files (e.g. Bridge keywords file) when the program is explicitly closed ...
    Last edited by John King; 04-02-2016 at 12:55pm.

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    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John King View Post
    .....

    However, it does write standard keywords to the files themselves, rather than keeping this important data separately .....
    Not to NEF raw files .. DNG I'm guess it may(but don't use DNG).

    so as a 'by the way' I'm pretty much Nikoncentric, so everything is NEF(raw) at my end .. Bridge was totally useless to me.
    In fact almost all the most common, or commonly used, cataloguing software was useless to my particular workflow.

    And in this day and age there is no excuse for catering to all possibilities either.
    They (Adobe) could easily have leveraged either Nikon's raw plugins(they have a Codec for use for just this topic) and could have easily set up both Bridge and or Lr to add keywords directly into the NEF format .. or they could have used ExifTool to do that.
    Both the Nikon raw codec and ExifTool allow the addition of keyword data into the NEF file.

    So as another aside(and risking this thread going way OT) .. I ended up using the most useless photo software available in a Windows environment, and that is M$'s Photo Gallery.
    It allows the addition of keywords directly into the NEF file(Nikon's raw codec needs to be installed) .. and it uses a reasonably OK database structure to allow searching.
    So Photo Gallery it is for me(for now).
    IIRC, I think you use Olympus hardware .. and hence Olympus raw format .. I tested Photo Gallery with Canon and Pentax files as I have a few downloaded on my PC, and it also writes to PEF and CRW file types too(again as long as the mfg codec is installed).
    Last edited by arthurking83; 04-02-2016 at 4:34pm.

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    Ausphotography Regular John King's Avatar
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    I did not think that any s/w other than a hex editor could write to a RAW file of any description, just to an .XMP sidecar file. I will try EXIFgui when the cat gets off my lap ... .

    Are these standard keywords?

    - - - Updated - - -

    OK. Checked, and EXIFgui will write standard IPTC keywords directly into both my .NEF and .ORF files, and that Bridge will recognise these (it will).

    However, Bridge will only write IPTC keywords to .XMP files ...

    Cannot say either yay or nay with MS Photo ATM.

    What I can say is that there is simply no way I would want to use EXIFgui to add keywords! It is very painful ... .

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    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Note that I use MS's Photo software(their supposed Pro photo software that is).
    I tried it briefly and removed it just a quickly as it really did nothing much.

    I only use Photo Gallery .. which is more gimmickry than anything else .. post to Youtube, cloud, Fb, Twitter .. etc ... most of the features are rubbish.
    It does have a decent face recognition once you've taught it a few faces tho.

    Photo Gallery is part of an addon pack(free) called Windows Essentials(with a year suffix, dependent on your Windows OS version!)
    Once again, this Essentials is just another pack of bloated rubbish, and when you install it you have to be deliberate about what you install.
    If you don't want the extra bloat, you have to untick the install options for those. I can't remember them all but things like Skype/Writer/etc.

    Gallery is slow to load if you have a lot of images, but like I said, once you have the manufacturer's codec installed, it adds the IPTC keyword data into the raw file itself.
    Then if you view your images via Windows Explorer it also displays those keywords if you display the keyword/tag column in the details pane.

    The other handy use for having the manufacturer's codec installed on a Windows system is that you can edit some of those fields(keywords etc) directly via Windows Explorer.

    My first port of call for my raw images is to use Nikon's basic ViewNX2 as it makes it simple to add IPTC keywording to the images in a batch lot.. a bit more cumbersome for individual images if there are lot of them that need various tags tho .. and so I looked for other software to do this.
    I tried ExifToolGui but again it worked in a limited manner ... and cumbersome.
    The main point was to maintain backward compatibility with ViewNX2 tho .. and apart from Exiftool(ExiftoolGUI), Photo Gallery and IdImager v4(which then became PhotoSupreme) no other software could write into the raw file in such a way.
    The idea of the XMP sidecar file format sounds great in theory .. but in practise it's useless!(if you want to use various software to manage your files)

    Until all the mess is sorted and an arrangement is struck by the manufacturer's for metadata side car files that are all cross compatible in some way .. all I want is my keyword data embedded into my raw files for future referencing.

    If you have a Windows environment and don't mind installing some useful(if somewhat useless at the same time) software like Windows Photo Gallery(Windows Essential!).
    All you need is the codec for your camera.
    Just this step at the least should allow you the option to right click any raw file, select properties navigate to the Details tab and edit any of the boxes that when you hover your mouse over and produce a black outline .. are editable. Not all fields are editable.
    But if you like, I can upload a sample image 'edited' only with Windows Explorer that is straight off the card from my brand spanking new up coming Nikon D900E!

    Photo Gallery just makes it easier to manage/edit/search hundreds of thousands of such images and keyword images from long ago that were not keyworded due to ignorance(back then).

    Oh! the other handy aspect of having the keywording data directly embedded in the raw file is that you only need Windows Explorer to search for images with known keyword tags.

    Al this info gave me a sense of dejavu .. because I posted about all this not too long ago .. HERE(I reckon I'm suffering from dementia .. but I can't remember if I have it or not )

    Note tho that the codec is the key ingredient for all this to work on raw files. It works as it should with jpg files .. but who archives jpg files?

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    Arthur, in win 7 I could access program data as administrator, but wjn 10 blocks meand threatens unknown consequences if i try to give the administrator rights, so that iis as far as it got.
    However I am glad that you and John are able to exchange so much detailed information.
    Last edited by martycon; 04-02-2016 at 11:36pm.

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    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martycon View Post
    Arthur, in win 7 I could access program data as administrator, but wjn 10 blocks meand threatens unknown consequences if i try to give the administrator rights, so that iis as far as it got.
    .....
    I remember that W10 had a very strict 'nanny' state about it .. I think I just granted admin rights to the entire C drive in the end, as I may have been very annoying not to ba able to easily access whatever corner of the HDD that is still technically mine!

    The warnings only mean the same thing as they should have in W7 tho .. exactly the same issue arise if you do something wrong.

    Is PSE still playing up with crashes tho?
    If so you could try a refresh 'reinstall' if it allows something like that.
    Do you need it to remember all the files you've ever edited?
    (I'm not that retentive about what my software does and doesn't remember I've worked on)

    I'm always cleaning out the AppData directories in my user profile. But then again, I'm always installing junk that I don't really need .. but what to see how it works.

    Like I said, I totally delete all the Adobe directories regularly and the Adobe programs I have/had installed all still worked, albeit sans a catalog or any memory of what I'd done previously.

    As to why PSE has inflated to 2.59G of space(what was it at install time), I have no real idea on what it's doing or why .. and how to correct it .. other than to reinstall.
    Never ever installed PSE, only PS CS6 and a few earlier incarnations over the years.

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    Arthur, please also see my other post, but specific to your comment here, yes I did delete PSE11, and reinstall, and sadly the 2.59G remains, and two impatient taps of enter or space bar still triggers a crash. Being patient and retired helps, but still is PIA!

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