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Thread: I'm going to live in a cave .... software issues(kind'a)

  1. #1
    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    I'm going to live in a cave .... software issues(kind'a)

    ... far away from electricity, computers, cameras, raw files, CaptureNX2 and ViewNX2!

    WARNING!: This post is one of those long, tedious, endless .... ranting .... convoluted, diatribes of mine.
    IN A NUTSHELL: I had trouble with some software I sorted it out in an unusual manner, which caused me grief but life is now good.

    In general, I'm a bit of a tech freak.
    I try to keep up with the latest news, and take an interest in stuff .. and how stuff works .. etc, etc .. but this one may see me head to the caves to get away from it all(it just does you're head in!).

    I have this one raw image file(out of many .. many thousands).
    The raw file is a D800E file, and I do my usual processing on it.
    I've done this for just over 100K raw files, most of which I still have in my archive.

    BUT! .. this one file drove me nuts for the past cupl'a days.

    The file was captured on Oct 2 and edited(or more accurately just fooled around with) a day or two later(we were camping).
    The image is nothing special, and I just wanted to see if anything could come of it. I wouldn't be mortified if it were lost to the ether.

    The file was initially opened in ViewNX2, and basic raw file edits made .. mainly to WB, and maybe set a new Picture Control(but I can't really remember).
    After a bit of mucking about I then sent it to CaptureNX2 to see if more involved tweaking could make it stand out(it didn't, but this isn't the point).
    In CNX2, the edits I made were:
    1. a contrast edit, in the form of a vignette to darken the edges
    2. a small contrast edit on the main subject in the form of a Colour Control Point(the main editing method in CNX2)
    3. a global colour edit in the form of a LCH tool edit step
    4. a USM edit step
    5. a slight crop to remove an unwanted section of the image(barely a few mm of trim)

    .. and that's where the issue starts.

    One long known and annoying aspect of Nikon's older software system was that if you edited an image in CaptureNX2(the more involved software), even tho you could view the image in ViewNX2(the basic software) .. you couldn't do any other process on that raw file in VNX2 any longer.
    CNX2 would lock the file from any further process in VNX2 .. even if all you wanted to do was convert the raw file to a tif or jpg.
    This limitation is seriously annoying, and to further the annoyance, CNX2 requires a very convoluted batch process for converting multiple raw images into other formats if need be.
    VNX2 on the other hand requires 1/100th of the work to do the same.

    But in checking out some stuff recently, and ViewNX2 being my main raw/jpg viewing software, on opening the folder with that image it crashed every time I got to the location of that raw file.
    That is, VNX2 was fine up until that raw file came into view on the film strip .. then it'd stop working!
    I just thought that after all these years, VNX2 was now playing up and needed to be removed .. after such a good run.

    Short story long .. (as you'd expect from me! ) .. I had to look into it. This sudden decision to lock up and play dead didn't make sense(from VNX2).
    I tracked the problem down to this one image coming into view.

    Then, the hard part .. why would this image cause a software lockup in a 'supposed' cohesive software environment. Even tho Nikon had decided on the previously mentioned file lockout limitation(which is just silly) .. I've never had an issue where a file is edited in one Nikon software and then the other Nikon software would lock up as a result of trying to view that file too.

    Further, I have 3 other CNX2 edited image files in that folder, and with the problem raw file isolated, VNX2 runs fine through the rest of the images .. no lockups.
    From there, the only possible way to solve the issue (and to see if it's going to be an ongoing issue!) was to get that file back into CNX2 and undo the edits.
    CNX2 allows this easily, when you open the file and make edits, each edit step is shown in the edit pane.
    You select them on and off as you please to see how the file looks with/without each step.(the steps are listed above in order)

    Turns out that the final crop step has done something to the file that VNX2 doesn't like .. and thus causes the lockup.
    I re edited the file into 10 variations of the edited file with each step enabled and disabled to give me some idea on where CNX2 is failing, and after much mucking about I dwindled the issue down to that final crop edit step. So that the raw file with all the other edits (1-4) enabled and the crop(5) disabled, VNX2 is viewing it fine.

    I have edited so many raw files with a crop of some sort, whether minor or major(eg. I sometimes create a 16:9 version of a file for desktop use), so cropping in CNX2 isn't the problem!
    I have many thousands of files edited in this way .. never seen this problem before.

    So with a bit more testing and researching as to what's going on .. I finally worked it all out that it's not the file itself or the edits on that file, it's the combination of edits that are causing the problem.
    I copied those same edits onto other unrelated images as a test(and the images look appropriately ghastly!) .. and the same VNX2 lockup issue happens when I try to view those edited image too.
    And to narrow it down even further .. I then removed the crop edit step, and re edit the raw file with another crop edit in CXN2, which is as close as I can get it to the same small edge .. and all is good now!

    Moral of the story: While it's easy to blame ViewNX2 as crappy software(for it's inability to read the file).. or CNX2(for it's inability to save a file properly) .. in the end it's neither. Just one of those things that happen .. and then doesn't!
    Anyhow, I was close to removing VNX2 from the PC(I will have too at some point if I get a new Nikon camera), but I should'a known better. Over the past umpteen years, I have had one issue with an early version of ViewNX(1) where it didn't like jpg files .. otherwise it's been my most used software by a couple of miles
    Nikon D800E, D300, D70s
    {Nikon} -> 50/1.2 : 500/8(CPU'd) : 105/2.8VR Micro : 180/2.8ais : 105mm f/1.8ais : 24mm/2ais
    {Sigma}; ->10-20/4-5.6 : 50/1.4 : 12-24/4.5-5.6II : 150-600mm|S
    {Tamron}; -> 17-50/2.8 : 28-75/2.8 : 70-200/2.8 : 300/2.8 SP MF : 24-70/2.8VC


  2. #2
    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurking83 View Post

    In general, I'm a bit of a tech freak.
    Now I was going to write a nice big reply, but I thought bugger it... and just quoted this bit... So I can post a nodding emoticon ...
    "It is one thing to make a picture of what a person looks like, it is another thing to make a portrait of who they are" - Paul Caponigro

    Constructive Critique of my photographs is always appreciated
    Nikon, etc!

    RICK
    My Photography

  3. #3
    Moderately Underexposed I @ M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurking83 View Post
    This limitation is seriously annoying, and to further the annoyance, CNX2 requires a very convoluted batch process for converting multiple raw images into other formats if need be.
    VNX2 on the other hand requires 1/100th of the work to do the same.

    Interesting to hear your thoughts on that one Arthur, I have never thought of batch processing as convoluted, either converting or applying copied adjustments to a series of files.

    As for the View NX issue, I did have something slightly similar happen some time ago and it "cured" itself after a removal, registry clean and re instillation of the program.
    I have had View become unresponsive on multiple occasions over the years and it will resurrect itself from the dead after a machine reboot but will fail again shortly after and that is the stage where removal and re installation cures it for a decent period of time.
    Andrew
    Nikon, Fuji, Nikkor, Sigma, Tamron, Tokina and too many other bits and pieces to list.



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    Arch-Σigmoid Ausphotography Regular ameerat42's Avatar
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    Maybe VNX has less discriminatory code in it where if a raw file is not the expected size it cannot handle it.
    (You did crop a raw file and re-save it as a raw file, didn't you? - I think?)

    I have heard of a similar situation: If you use Σ's SPP6.x on a raw file, you cannot later open that raw file in earlier SPP5.x.
    But you can the other way around. I suppose you can call it progress. - Or George
    CC, Image editing OK.

  5. #5
    A royal pain in the bum!
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    Quote Originally Posted by I @ M View Post
    ....

    As for the View NX issue, I did have something slightly similar happen some time ago and it "cured" itself after a removal, registry clean and re instillation of the program ......
    I 'spose that's the point.
    I couldn't work out why it worked ok if I pointed it to another directory, and then froze up when opening this directory. Obviously an image in there must have been the issue.
    Uninstalling and re installing ... tedious stuff.
    So then the question .. which image .. then the next question(once the image was located) .. why? .. etc.
    After re editing the raw file in question, by deleting the crop and then reapplying a new crop(hopefully the same) .. then no problem! Uninstalling/cleaning/reinstalling avoided.

    This is totally different to the original issue I had with CNX-D which simply crashed on starting 9 times out of 10(that was on Win7) I can't begin to remember how many times I reinstalled that program all to no avail. On Win10 it behaves much more civilised .. albeit slowly.
    Note that CNX-D also crashed while I was investigating what/where/why .. but that's normal in my experience with CNX-D. But it also worked fine too, and I could convert the suspect raw file into a jpg file too with CNX-D.

    As for batching in CNX2 .. it's just convoluted in getting to the batch dialogue point.
    If all I wanted to do was save a bunch of raw files into another format, it's a two or three step process .. and then you select the images you want to convert.
    In VNX2, you select the images then click convert, resize options are then offered and it's overall much easier to do.

    @ Am .. I have no idea other than, I've never seen this issue before. If the code was indeed inherent in the software, then you'd think that it'd happen all the time.
    But when it's a problem one moment, and then not .. it doesn't make sense.

    FWIW: I did save the edit list in a set file for posterity. Andrew, if you would like to see if it does it to your set up, are you willing to try it?
    That is, I'll send you the 500kb edit file list.
    You apply it to a raw image via CNX2.
    Save that file to somewhere remote(eg. on a spare drive) as an NEF.
    Then point VNX2 to that location and see if it locks up.
    BTW, if VNX2 locks up and you close it, the next time you open it it just opens at the last known good location.(sometimes!)
    It's kind'a smart enough to have a config file to understand that process. BUT! not always. if it tries to open again to that folder where the dodgy file is located and just crashes again, you have to either delete the file, or rename the file extension to something VNX2 won't recognise(I use Mef).

    I'm curious if this is a bug, or if it's an issue only on my PC setup(that is, some other possible problem with something else running in the background)

    - - - Updated - - -

    ps.

    Quote Originally Posted by ameerat42 View Post
    ....

    I have heard of a similar situation: If you use Σ's SPP6.x on a raw file, you cannot later open that raw file in earlier SPP5.x.
    But you can the other way around. ....
    This situation is normal.
    you can get that in just about any software. It's a matter of the file format improvements made in the intervening years.

    CaptureNX/CaptureNX2 has a similar system .. Microsoft office has a similar system .. etc.
    I suppose you'd have a compatibility format that you could save too(eg. as you do in MS Office).

    I vaguely remember that with CNX/CNX2, if you did edit a raw file in CNX2(which is different in many ways to CNX), CNX would recognise the raw file, but I think it may not have opened it with the CNX2 specific edits!
    eg. CNX didn't have a clone healing tool, where CNX2 does(if you could call it that). So make a clone edit in CNX2 and open the raw file in CNX, then in CNX that clone/healed area wouldn't appear cloned/healed .. etc.
    But like SPP tho, any edit made in CNX would be reproduced in CNX2.

    That actually doesn't bother me in any way .. I guess it's just a part of progress .. or George!

  6. #6
    Who let the rabble in? Lance B's Avatar
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    Get rid of the Nikon software and use Capture One Pro. All things solved.

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    A royal pain in the bum!
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    I was this >< close to doing just that.
    Doesn't solve the problem of image backup and tagging tho .. all the other software just add to that problem.

  8. #8
    Moderately Underexposed I @ M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurking83 View Post
    spose that's the point.
    FWIW: I did save the edit list in a set file for posterity. Andrew, if you would like to see if it does it to your set up, are you willing to try it?
    That is, I'll send you the 500kb edit file list.
    Yep, I'll give it a go.
    Been busy editing the sunrise seascape shots from this morning. You should have been here, you would have enjoyed it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lance B View Post
    Get rid of the Nikon software and use Capture One Pro. All things solved.
    Sorry Lance, incorrect as purchasing software does not solve an empty wallet.

    Quote Originally Posted by arthurking83 View Post


    I was this >< close to doing just that.
    Doesn't solve the problem of image backup and tagging tho .. all the other software just add to that problem.
    After the new pC was built a week ago I thought I might be >< close to doing the same but after a bit of to and froing the existing regime is flying along faster than ever before so I am a very happy camper as I don't have to spend money or learn new stuffs.

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