New (second hand) desktop slower than old laptop

[JDuding]

@Am and Cage... no apologies necessary. And not overloaded with info.
I appreciate all the info and suggestions. Was the point of posting about this issue.

Was just pointing out that I have limited time for a couple of days.

I certainly haven't felt like anyone was getting pushy... but did notice the enthusiasm to help from everyone.
Grateful and will get through all the info and provide some updates to the issue as soon as time permits.

[arthurking83]

Re the GPU, my understanding is that the app software needs to explicitly throw work at it - is that correct ? Photoshop does this, especially for for complex calcs like blurring as Warbler pointed out, but I'm not sure Capture NX-D would be doing this. In other words, a GPU upgrade might not have any effect in this case.

.....

Like I said earlier (yeah!! I know it was a long post! ) ..

NX-D doesn't take advantage of the GPU at all.
I'm only running an on board graphics chip and my processor is also considerably embarrassed by all those i7's out there is PC hotrod land too but (rarely) using CNX-D (actually very rarely!) and a simple process like a WB change is instantaneous.
My conclusion is that CNX-D's inner workings rely less on CPU/GPU processing power and more so on storage speed.


Traditionally, Nikon's software relied more on storage speed to work quickly and efficiently(that was both Capture NX2 and View NX2.

Warbler states that Adobe says that for every 1Gb of cache caters for about 200 raw images. That implies that they use jpg previews(or similarly small image file types).
Nikon have traditionally used tiff files for previews.
I'm looking into the workings of CNX-D and I haven't found much other than a few files with a .nkr file extension that could be a compressed image format of some type.

In the old days, when Nikon's software relied on tiff files for rendering the image on screen, the faster the storage system, the quicker (most)things were completed.
The one exception (in CNX2) was always noise reduction. This seemed to rely heavily on CPU power .. which makes sense.

I'm off to work today too, but when you have time JD .. in CNX-D have a quick look at some settings(if you haven't already)

Go to Tools -> Preferences. New box opens and in the upper section check your cache settings.
Firstly find the location of the old cache folder(it should be listed in the dialogue box, I think) and delete it completely. (shift delete!! not recycle)
It's not needed, other than to help the program start a up a little quicker.

Then set the cache to a new location, using the Specify cache location tick box. On your SSD, create a new folder on the C drive called cache. Set the cache to that lcoation.
Cache is always best set to the fastest drive in your system. Even better if that drive is both faster AND separate from your programs folder .. but again this was the best way back in the old days of CNX2. I see that CNX-D is a little different.
But this is how I have my computer set up anyhow. A separate and the fastest drive I have is used for cache(not the main C drive).
Personally I care little for a few extra seconds for a program to load up.. but I prefer faster actual inner operations.
Actually my fastest drive is my image location, but the cache drive is fast enough to be considered the same speed(about 10% slower).

FWIW: on my PC I have 5 HDDs(all HDDS, no SSDs) C drive is the slowest normal drive. Image storage is the fastest, and I have a dedicated cache drive(which I use for all manner of temporary storage).

I regularly format the cache drive to keep it running as quick as it can. It's average read speed is about 90-100Mb/s, write speeds are in the 80-ish range. And note that write speeds are critical for any cache location .. which makes sense when you think about it .. as that's what a program does .. continually write too and read from a cache for every update step!


.. gotta scoot off now.

[JDuding]

update: askcdgaslhlkbn!!#@$@%#$#@

Yesterday... I changed in the BIOS the storage mode from IDE to AHCI.
After finding that it needed safe mode to install a driver... got the system to start up and think it shaved another second off of the calculation test.

After thinking about what had been said and that CNX-D doesn't utilise the graphics card...
I decided to see if there was a lag between the motherboard and the graphics card.
So I shutdown the system, unplugged the monitor cable (HDMI) from the graphics card and plugged it into the port on the motherboard.

pressed the on button.

"BEEP, BEEP, BEEP" repeat.

Thought, "OH NO!"

Turned it off. swapped it back. "BEEP, BEEP, BEEP" repeat.

Found an RGB cable... "BEEP, BEEP, BEEP" repeat.

rang the computer bloke... "...you must have bumped the RAM. Try reseating it..."
Me "how do you bump RAM by swapping a monitor cable?"
"...try it and ring me back..."

"BEEP, BEEP, BEEP" repeat.

Rang back "...maybe one chip is faulty. Try with just one and see... it's Melbourne Cup soon, so if you need to bring it in, it will have to be tomorrow..."

"BEEP, BEEP, BEEP" repeat.


------Next day--------

In his shop.
He starts the computer "...%$# %# %$##..."
Me "What happened?"
"...there's a burning smell coming from the power supply..."
he tries 2 other power supplies and finally gets one to power on the computer... to hear "BEEP, BEEP, BEEP" repeat.
He then says "...leave it with me... I'll see what I can do..."

I left and on one hand... the fault in the system could explain the performance issues... but on the other hand... what a lemon.


Will post when I hear back from the pc bloke.

[ameerat42]

Why bother??? There can only be ONE OUTCOME: he gives you back your money and you PART WAYS!!!

Just let us know how SOON this happens. If it is NOT INSTANTANEOUS, then get Consumer Affairs HEAVILY involved.

Better to lose a 2ple of 10s of $ paying them than HEAPS MORE to this "computer CROWD".

Now is that time to STAND FIRM!

By Hector!! They should be showering you with refunds and apologies!!!

[JDuding]

If he can provide me with an 'as good or better' motherboard, cpu, powersupply and RAM... with the SSD and HDD and the Graphics card and wirless card... for no extra cost... all I've lost it a bit of time.

If that doesn't happen... then I will be expecting the refund.

If the refund is not happening... then I take the long legal path and see where that leads.

[ameerat42]

You're too kind!

[JDuding]

That's better than the old me

[arthurking83]

Sometimes it happens .. can't be helped.
Years back, when WinXP was brand new, so I think about '04-ish .. I'd just built myself a new PC. Ran perfectly, fast smooth etc, etc.
Recommended it to a mate at work(looking for a new PC)(BTW, I still have that ol box! too).
Anyhow, he went direct to MSY(where I got my parts) and they built it for him.
He came to me at work one day after it was all up and running, saying it randomly reboots. No beeps, no warnings .. nut'n! .. just shuts down and starts again with no wanring. Randomly.
He took it to the shop for them to fix it .. and came back a while later telling me they didn't fix it, even tho it worked ok for a few days. started just this random rebooting for no reason.
He gave it too me to have a look(as it was the exact same specs as mine) and I had it for a few days. I had it running some CPU or RAM tests for a few days .. maybe two or three(can't remember).
No problem! Anyhow .. then one day, it rebooted on me too! I'm thinking, maybe now we can find the problem. Checked all configs I knew how too, and many that I had no idea about.
So went to search some RAM timing specs .. and what they all mean and do(of which I had -100% knowledge on .... and still do )
So with the computer sitting only at the BIOS configs page(ie. no load whatsoever) it rebooted! .. is the BIOS borked? .. how on earth do you fix that.
Last thing I wanted to do was update the BIOS firmware and have it reboot during that process .. then it's not even a paperweight .. it's a total gonner(new mobo needed).

But after the reboot and me searching for the info on RAM timing, I noticed that the BIOS config page I was on now.. said that the 5V rail had failed.
So I sat there, for a while and it said .. good now. I sat there for a good hour, maybe more just waiting to see if it'd change again .. and there it was. The 5 volt rail in the PSU was occasionally failing.

Took it back to him, told him to go back to MSY and tell them to change the PSU. The PSU was a well known high quality one from Antec(came in the case) .. I had the exact same case.

Moral of the story .. it happens. It's better to have the attitude that it's not the fault of the builder of the system, nor that of the manufacturer, ALL of the time.
This was one that just slipped through the QC filter.


Speaking of which: I'm about to update to a new PC very soon(next few days or so) .. because my PSU has been making grinding fan noises for about 2 maybe 3 years now!
it drives me nuts, and every now and then I pull it apart and grease it up a bit and it's fine for a few days.
The reason I haven't changed it is that it still works .. albeit with rocks getting crushed within it's small confines.

But I need a NAS server, and the best way for me to do that, without wasting money is to get a new PC, and retire this current 'rock crusher' as my NAS.

I'll post some CNX-D times in a few hours or so .. once household chores are done.

And unless the 'BEEP BEEP BEEP' failure is in the 12volt rail, which means possibly not supplying enough power to the HDD, then I doubt it's the cause of the slowness. But I think you'd have had stability issues too ... but I'm not sure, as I've never had any experience with that.

[ameerat42]

Sure, but JD's been getting some shrift that has been curtailed from the people, in amongst the inaction.

[Cage]

If he can provide me with an 'as good or better' motherboard, cpu, powersupply and RAM... with the SSD and HDD and the Graphics card and wirless card... for no extra cost... all I've lost it a bit of time.

May I suggest that you ask for a full parts list, including Make & Model Nos, before you make any decision, and that you post that list here.

There are plenty of folk on this forum who build their own computers and in a short time can look at the proposed specs and very quickly pick up on any incompatibilities.

I'm guessing by the sound of things that he uses very cheap and nasty PSU's which can cause all sorts of problems. It is very important that the various components, particularly the CPU, RAM and GPU get the right amount of regulated power to function correctly.

[ameerat42]

What's the use of that? What if they muck that up too? I reckon he should be rid of it and of their
association too.

[Cage]

What's the use of that? What if they muck that up too? I reckon he should be rid of it and of their
association too.

If the parts are all up to the job, and compatible, it then becomes pretty much a plug 'n' play exercise.

I should add that given the sellers history in building gaming machines there is a very good chance that the used components may have been overclocked and therefore stressed. I guess it all comes back to 'Caveat Emptor'.

[ameerat42]

That's right. Easy as pie what you're saying. I have put a few machines together over the years.

It's the whole situation that I'm talking about... Like you mean, if they're that good, why demur?
Rectify it. - Pref the easiest way: take back your "machine" and get money back.

[arthurking83]

@ JD.

Just did some testing with CNX-D(which is a slightly convoluted process).
I reckon it doesn't use all that much in the way of storage resources. That is, it's not as reliant on storage speed, as is/was Nikon's CaptrueNX2 and ViewNX2.
With the old NX2's, the faster the storage speed you used, the much faster both programs effective ran. And that included the location of the cache area.

So the most likely culprit for the CNX-D slowdown could be/have been a CPU issue of some sort.
Could be like Cage said, a PSU issue. eg. if it didn't supply enough power to the CPU the CPU can't utilise it's full potential.

I'm not a programmer type, so have no idea on how software developers write their programs, but CNX-D isn't like the NX2's with heavy reliance on storage speed for efficient operation.

FWIW: I have many HDDs on my PC, fastest runs at about 140-170MB/s and the slowest runs at an anaemic 50MB/s(that's megabytes, nor megabits).
So technically, 100MB file will 'load' in either 0.75s for the fast drive, or about 2s for the slow drive. But it doesn't actually work like that in real life!

Using both drives, and comparing CNX-D and VNX-2 and doing some simple/basic/easy-one-touch edits .. WB/PictureControl type stuff.
I also tested cache speed too, so each run, I tested with cache cleared(deleted) and left intact too.
VNX-2 is instant with the same image on both drives. That is, make the change and with the image on either the fast or slow drive .. and the change is instant.
If you could measure the time it took to effect the change, it'd be less than 0.1s.(that's different to how it used to be, and the slower drive always caused a slight delay.

CNX-D was slightly different, but the overall effect was the same.
With the cache cleared, each edit effect too a half a second or so to render the image. Most of that rendering was not so much for the colour or tone difference, but just for the rendering of the image to be sharp. For each edit step, CNX-D blurs the image a bit(it looks pixelated), makes the edit effect instantly, and then unblurs the image to a sharp pic again. That sharpening takes about 0.5 - 0.75sec on my PC.
But that's with the cache cleared(which is like loading the images up for the first time).
With the cache untouched, which is akin to going back to re-edit an image .. the changes were instantaneous like VNX2 is.
rendering is immediate .. both for colour/tone changes AND sharpness rendering.

Curious if the PC changes after the current issue is resolved too.

[JDuding]

A quick update... (then I'll go back and read the new posts from everyone )

My NEW (New (second hand)) desktop pc is home.

Did a test instore and it is doing the calculations almost instantly.

edit--- forgot to add...
it has a new motherboard and new power supply

Still need to give it a full workout... but looking like something to smile about now.
All covered under his warranty.
People can be ok sometimes.

- - - Updated - - -

Sometimes it happens .. can't be helped.

Moral of the story .. it happens. It's better to have the attitude that it's not the fault of the builder of the system, nor that of the manufacturer, ALL of the time.
This was one that just slipped through the QC filter...

...And unless the 'BEEP BEEP BEEP' failure is in the 12volt rail, which means possibly not supplying enough power to the HDD, then I doubt it's the cause of the slowness. But I think you'd have had stability issues too ... but I'm not sure, as I've never had any experience with that.

The 3 beeps is supposed to be a faulty RAM alarm... but the RAM was fine in the New motherboard.
So... the issue was either the motherboard or the PSU... but both were swapped out for upgraded parts and the actual fault was not discovered, as far as I know.

All the work was done under warranty and better components than before.

May I suggest that you ask for a full parts list, including Make & Model Nos, before you make any decision, and that you post that list here.

There are plenty of folk on this forum who build their own computers and in a short time can look at the proposed specs and very quickly pick up on any incompatibilities.

I'm guessing by the sound of things that he uses very cheap and nasty PSU's which can cause all sorts of problems. It is very important that the various components, particularly the CPU, RAM and GPU get the right amount of regulated power to function correctly.

I documented all the components to post... (until the 3 beep issue broke me)... and never thought to write down the PSU details.

So what I have now is an ASUS PBZ77-M (upgraded from an ASRock H61M/U3S3)
Still the same i7 3.4ghz
Still the 16 GB of 1600 DDR3 RAM
A CASECOM PSU 600W -VP600 (ugraded from a ??? smelt odd)
Same

NVIDIA GeForce GT 220
GPU Clock	625 MHz Shader Clock: 1360 MHz
Memory Amount	1.0 GB
Memory Clock	800 MHz (400 MHz DDR2)

_____WOW______
Typing this reply and I had to open up the unit to get the motherboard details... noticed that it was missing the CMOS battery...


The Pc Bloke was apologetic and I will pick it up tomorrow.

Sure, but JD's been getting some shrift that has been curtailed from the people, in amongst the inaction.

TOO RIGHT!
And even today he asked if I was using it during the recent thunderstorm.
"No... I was taking photos of it, trying to capture the lightning" (no luck btw... will keep trying)




As per my previous post... I'll do some testing later.
Tonight I am off to do an intro to photography course, put on by the camera house where I bought my camera.
Can't gets too much leaning in me right

[ameerat42]

The specs look LIGHTNING fast. Hope it gets up and goes.
(Must've been those pictures you were taking)

[Cage]

JD, you've learnt that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

OK, the Mobo, spec wise, should do all you need, and more. It's a scaled down budget type board, but mainly in the respect of expansion slots, and the 16GB of RAM should be more than enough for your needs. The CPU seems well regarded and will offer some tweaking if you feel the need.

See how it runs, and if it is doing what you expect it to, look at getting a half-decent brand name PSU, which I think is the weakest link.

I think the specs add up and should give you what you need, maybe with a tad of fine tuning.

for it.