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Thread: Was it a high ISO that caused these poor quality shots?

  1. #21
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    MadMax1412's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurking83 View Post

    If you can, can you send me a copy of the raw file(if shot in raw), and I'll see what CNX-D can do with it in terms of NR.

    If you shot in jpg mode, then this is it. You may be able to squeeze 1 or 2% more quality out of this image, but as a jpg, it's now cooked like this and that's about it.
    With an NEF file, the ability to eke out more detail is quite significant.
    Unfortunately, it was shot in JPG. The reason I do this is only because I'm still learning all the controls etc of the camera and haven't learnt any post production skills yet so to save space on my hard drive, I shoot in JPG. Also, if I was to shoot in RAW, I'd want a good batch program to convert them once I was "finished" with them, once again, to save hard drive space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cage View Post


    From reading your posts I get the feeling that you want to be more creative with your photography than using camera pre-sets allow. My tip is to familiarise yourself with the 'Sunny 16 Rule'. It doesn't matter if you are using the most basic 'Point & Shoot', or the most expensive high-end DSLR, all their operating algorithms are based on that rule.
    Yes, that's exactly it. I want to learn the features of a SLR to take stunning shots, rather than use it in a point-and-shoot manner and take good "holiday" shots.

  2. #22
    Still in the Circle of Confusion Cage's Avatar
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    Nikon's free VIEW NX 2 allows you some basic editing and the ability to convert your RAW files to .jpg
    Cheers
    Kev

    Nikon D810: D600 (Astro Modded): D7200 and 'stuff', lots of 'stuff'

  3. #23
    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cage View Post
    Arthur, if you were referring to my statement to turn VC off, I was only suggesting doing that when using a tripod.

    ......
    Oh boy! .. my bad. Aplogies Cage.
    Just read the OP, and you're right, shooting on a tripod was mentioned.
    I should learn to read!


    Max!!

    I always tell people(mainly Nikon people) .. the best way to learn more about what your camera 'can' do .. is to always shoot raw mode.

    I may read some people's opinions that shooting jpg is better when you start off, and of course my recommendation is just my own personal opinion, but as yet, I have not read one decent reason to start off shooting in jpg format, and then graduate on to shooting raw as you become more experienced.
    In fact, all arguments so far seem to indicate that starting off in raw mode makes more sense .. and if you're inclined then to switch to jpg as you become expert .. but in reality just stay with the raw format.

    Anyhow .. of course being a D90, raw = NEF format.
    My reasoning for recommending that beginners start off shooting in raw mode are many:
    The absolute primary reason is the ability to recover exposure mistakes with raw files, many times better than is possible with jpg or tiff.
    But (with Nikon), my personal primary reasoning is that with ViewNX2 as your initial sorting software, you can perform many basic edit tasks, that are possible in camera too.
    if you shoot in jpg mode, almost all of those basic editing choices are not possible.

    WB(editing) is a priority .. even before you choose to adjust any exposure. With this, Nikon got the ordering of the edit steps wrong in ViewNX2's interface.
    If you need to adjust exposure, and then move down to adjusting WB(remember WB = white balance), the exposure on the image will almost certainly change again, and there is a chance that some slight exposure tweak could be needed again ...eg. if 'a perfect' histogram is your goal.

    But the main point here being that you can set these edits in ViewNX2 if shooting in NEF mode, whereas you can't if shooting in jpg(or tiff) mode.

    First thing that crops up as an argument against shooting raw mode, is that you can't easily share/upload/view the raw file, as you can with a ubiquitous file type such as jpg.
    As this site is a family friendly type and hence rated G .. I can't post my actual thoughts on this most stupidest of arguments .. but I think you get the gist of disdain for such an argument.

    Firstly, if it's so difficult for someone to figure out how to convert the raw file into a usable jpg file in camera ... ... well these so called expert photographers really shouldn't be recommending anything to anyone!
    (and in all seriousness should be heading back to school to learn the basics of reading again!)

    Shoot raw. if you need a jpg to share with friends there and then at that moment .. go to the edit tab in your camera's menu. If you haven't got time to make any edit tweaks, just save the file. It only saves as a jpg. Your raw file is now also on the camera as a jpg that you can share/upload/display .. etc.
    it should take even the most basically experienced user about 15-30sec to save any raw file on the camera into a jpg file(with basic edits).

    The there has been arguments presented that raw files can have particular look about them .. being flat or lifeless or whatever other silly description.
    To the absolutely uninitiated, this may be, but after one session in their chosen software, and as long as the user has just the tiniest attention span, the next lot of images will make more sense.
    Anyhow, irrespective of all this, as both Cage and I have both recommended try ViewNX2 for viewing Nikon NEF files. They will (or should) appear on your computer as they did on your camera.
    Other thirdparty raw software, will display those same raw files slightly differently to how Nikon software does!
    If ViewNX2 renders your images wildly different to how they looked on your camera, then your computer screen is out of calibration, and needs it badly.
    If they look very similar, or close to it .. then your screen's calibration isn't 'wacked out'.
    This is also important for when it comes to editing.

    So even tho the raw format may seem a bit 'confusing' or enigmatic, or incomprehensible because your TV, or iPad can't view it natively .. the reality is that it's the photographer's equivalent to a dog!
    (your best friend!!)

    It helps you to determine consistently made errors in shooting .... by your own hand, your camera, or your lens(or all of those combined .. as well as any other sources).
    It also helps you to figure out any basic settings that you may constantly use in software, which you could then transfer back onto the camera again which then helps again later with speedier editing workflow back on the computer again(as an example .. fewer edit steps for each image to perform on the computer).

    Whilst jpg shooting in camera is not the most important aspect to consider in photography, you should be informed that no matter which way you argue the point, if it can be done with a jpg it can be done with a raw file. And it takes only a few seconds to turn a raw file into a jpg on your camera if needed.

    Later in PP on the computer, your choice of software will determine the 'look' of the raw file.
    If you need to edit with non raw aware software(such as Paint.net) .. then using VNX2 to convert the files you want to edit into jpgs is quick'n'easy to do as well.
    You could set up VNX2 to 'Open With' if you wanted a one click solution to editing in PDN too.
    Nikon D800E, D300, D70s
    {Nikon}; -> 50/1.2 : 500/8 : 105/2.8VR Micro : 180/2.8 ais : 105mm f/1.8 ais : 24mm/2 ais
    {Sigma}; ->10-20/4-5.6 : 50/1.4 : 12-24/4.5-5.6II : 150-600mm|S
    {Tamron}; -> 17-50/2.8 : 28-75/2.8 : 70-200/2.8 : 300/2.8 SP MF : 24-70/2.8VC

    {Yongnuo}; -> YN35/2N : YN50/1.8N


  4. #24
    Still in the Circle of Confusion Cage's Avatar
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    I agree totally with Arthur's comments above.

    Please don't strangle your post processing capabilities with the desire to save on hard drive storage. A good quality external hard drive will cost you around eighty bucks.

    I don't think there are too many, if any, award winning photos presented as straight from the camera.

  5. #25
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    MadMax1412's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cage View Post

    Max, there is a free noise reduction program available here..... http://www.imagenomic.com/download.aspx

    Go to the bottom of the page and download the Noiseware Community Edition Standalone v.2.6
    Thanks for the heads up on this software. I tried out your version on a few photos and liked the results, so I uninstalled and re-installed the Standard Edition so that I could re-do the photos and save them and retain the EXIF information which unfortunately is lost with the Community Edition version. I'm not sure it's a bug in the Standard Edition, but I turned on "Preview" and the image doesn't change (I checked the options and it's set to 1 second). I tested this by moving all sliders to the right and waiting but my photo didn't change to show how it would look. I then hit "Go" to see what it would have looked like and it's obvious the preview wasn't working (as opposed to the change being imperceptible).

    I noticed on the "Features" page it only supports JPEG, PNG, BMP, TIFF, so if I'm going to start shoot and post-production work in RAW, I gather I can't use this program unless I do any post-production work (eg brightness, contrast etc) first, then save as JPG and then use the sharpening program. I had a quick look at PhotoShop but it seems to now be on a monthly plan as opposed to being able to buy outright, plus seems a bit expensive since I'm still learning.
    Last edited by MadMax1412; 31-12-2014 at 7:30pm.

  6. #26
    Still in the Circle of Confusion Cage's Avatar
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    Max, welcome to the frustrating world of photo processing.

    I've bitten the bullet, or swallowed the bitter pill that Adobe offer, and gone for the Photoshop CC deal at $9.99 per month. Don't get me started on what I think of Adobe's price gouging tactics in Australia.

    I'm generally reasonably pleased with it, however, and isn't there always a 'however', for me, the noise reduction program sucks, big time.

    I try to avoid shooting at high ISO levels, but occasionally, in the interests of getting maybe a reasonable shot, I get sucked into pushing it that little bit higher. It almost never works, but then, unfortunately for me, I'm a bloody hard marker of my own work.

    There are commercial noise reduction programs available for processing in RAW which may, or may not, interfere with info you don't want touched. In my limited experience, I've noticed that noise reduction seems to equate with an equal reduction in sharpness.

    I suppose the bottom line of this dissertation is to avoid, if possible, shooting at high ISO levels. Add light with a flash, use different sun angles or whatever.

    Some dude, who is a hell of a lot smarter than I am, made the statement that 'photography is all about light'.

    It's how we use it that defines us as photographers.

  7. #27
    A royal pain in the bum! arthurking83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMax1412 View Post
    .... so if I'm going to start shoot and post-production work in RAW ....

    This is good.
    If you download ViewNX2, then also download Capture NX-D.

    View is a much better program in that speed and stability isn't an issue, whereas Capture NX-D is a very badly written software.
    But CNX-D has features that VNX2 doesn't, and noise reduction is one of them(as well as many others). But in this instance it's the NR feature you will want to try.

    I don't use CNX-D much simply because it's slow and generally unstable, and I have Capture NX2(which does everything), but I have it and generally use it just to see how well(or more accurately badly it's working), but the tools in CNX-D are handy to have if you have some patience.

    Then, as you said, you can convert to jpg to edit in some finishing touches to an image. You could try to use the tiff option instead of jpg, but I don't think it's worth the hassle.
    If you find that you could use tiff to advantage later on, you can revisit this option at a later point in your learning curve if the need arises.
    Tiff can provide a higher quality file type to work with than jpg does .. but for most people just starting out jpg is more than fine.
    The important point to remember is that once you have the raw file, the other files types then follow.

    Doing this(for now) your workflow is then all free.
    Once you have some experience with understanding what to do to an image in (PP)Post Production, you can then safely convince yourself that paying for something like Lr or Adobe's CC software will be worth it.

    This is just my point of view, and hence just a matter of preference, but I've already purchased LR. But to be honest it was a waste of money. Not because it's no good, more so because I hardly ever use it.

    I start with ViewnX2.
    I sometimes try to open an image with CNX-D, but this is because I can understand just from looking at an image if the tools in CNX-D will do what I want for an image.
    More often tho, if VNX2 doesn't do what I want to an image, I then open in it CaptureNX2.

    If I need any more intricate editing, I also prefer to open the image(usually a jpg) in PDN .. for example if I need some cloning/healing.

  8. #28
    Ausphotography irregular Mark L's Avatar
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    Agree with AK, start using and processing raw as soon as you can. It helps in the long run.
    Or take you photos in raw and jpg if your camera does that. Once you gain experience you may want to come back and PP some photos from the raw files later.
    Your cameras processing abilities can't do this. Or the computer using a jpg file (I think).

    SOOC
    IMG_8199.JPG

    With some basic PPing of the raw file that I was forced to learn by shooting raw from the start.
    IMG_8199a.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMax1412 View Post
    I want to learn the features of a SLR to take stunning shots, rather than use it in a point-and-shoot manner and take good "holiday" shots.
    A good way to help is to post some photos for CC. The feedback will help you on your way.
    Last edited by Mark L; 04-01-2015 at 12:05am.

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