How to deal with overly optimistic novice photographers who think they are better than they are?

[MissionMan]

The lesson that you get what you pay for is an invaluable one the customer will get to use many times over , maybe not specifically relating to photography, but to many other aspects of life. I assume the customer will take the photographer to task , express their displeasure if the job is not well done , request a refund, a reshoot etc..... . The certainly would not get any word of mouth recommendations and so if they do not do a good job their business will eventually fizzle out.

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See response to Jev above.

So the photographer doesn't succeed and the couples weddings photos are ruined. That'll help them a whole lot the NEXT time they get married.

As people have said, the first time people get exposed to formal photography is generally a wedding, which is also the most important occasion to have an experienced photographer. Learning a lesson from the experience doesn't help them a whole lot.

The idea that you get what you pay for is not relevant in this case, largely because customer don't actually understand what the cost associated with wedding photography actually is so their perception warped. They don't understand what pro gear costs, what the insurance costs, how much post processing is required. They see the more expensive photographer as the Ferrari rather than the toyota camry because someone is trying to sell them a bicycle that looks like a car for $1000 and they don't know the difference.

The amount of work going into wedding planning is incredible which is why people don't bother to educate themselves. If there was more visibility in the press of poor photography, it might actually help the real photographers but I think most people are embarrassed about their choices and don't tend to go public afterwards for fear that people will see them as an idiot.

[bcys1961]

So the photographer doesn't succeed and the couples weddings photos are ruined. That'll help them a whole lot the NEXT time they get married.

As people have said, the first time people get exposed to formal photography is generally a wedding, which is also the most important occasion to have an experienced photographer. Learning a lesson from the experience doesn't help them a whole lot..

Well that's life , survival of the fittest , law of the jungle etc. etc.. . (There is more than a 50% probability they both will get married again anyway, so may get to use their experience).

The original question was if you should say something to this person you know ( a little) , who is thinking of advertising their services a wedding photographer , and I and a few others simply say , let them go for it . They may prosper , they may not . They may create joyous permanent memories for some lucky couples , or they may destroy the hopes and dreams of others . Every wannabe wedding photographer has to start somewhere so let them start and then let the market determine the photographers fate. You can try and stop this one if you like but their are hundreds more lining up behind them to have their go at it.

[WhoDo]

I assume the customer will take the photographer to task , express their displeasure if the job is not well done , request a refund, a reshoot etc..... . The certainly would not get any word of mouth recommendations and so if they do not do a good job their business will eventually fizzle out.

Ok, but "expressions of displeasure (sic) ... refund, a reshoot, etc." Are no compensation for having a once-in-a-lifetime event ruined because the photographer was too egotistical to recognise that he/she wasn't ready for such responsibility. I understand your expectation that people hiring the said photographer need to do their homework first BUT many don't know enough about it to tell a good one from a bad one, and others are often too short of money to be particularly choosy. I just happen to think that the principle onus falls on the person advertising for hire skills they simply do not have! Fortunately, consumer protection laws seem to agree with that position. I've seen the same thing in other fields of endeavour, where the shyster simply goes out of business under one name and starts up again under another. The fact remains that most consumers are not qualified to judge the expertise of most professions. Do you really have any idea how good a doctor your doctor is, after all? We have registration bodies that attempt (and sometimes fail) to protect consumers in the building industry, law, medicine, etc. Nothing really protects a consumer from a dodgy photographer, unfortunately. It's up to all of us to minimise the impact they have for all of our sakes, or we'll be the used car salesmen of the new millennium.

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Every wannabe wedding photographer has to start somewhere so let them start and then let the market determine the photographers fate. You can try and stop this one if you like but their are hundreds more lining up behind them to have their go at it.

Yes, they do, and the appropriate place is as a second shooter for an experienced photographer, not playing with the memories of innocent people trying to start their lives together on a high note. Why is it that so many people think they don't need EXPERIENCE along with their learned skills, knowledge and equipment? You advocate getting that experience at the expense of others. I'm simply suggesting there are less damaging ways to get the experience they need. I would have thought that , as thinking, reasoning human beings we were a little better than the "survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, etc. etc."

[bricat]

When I had a house extension done many years ago I got about 5 quotes. I knew nothing about building costs so I had to make a decision. Quotes ranged between $20.000. and $60,000. I kid you not. Same goes with a photog. You shop around or get recommendations from family and friends. Such an important decision requires a lot of thought and planning. So should you say something? Yes with a lot of thought and not be influenced by your own shortcomings. ( I mean that in the nicest way) cheers Brian

[bcys1961]

When I had a house extension done many years ago I got about 5 quotes. I knew nothing about building costs so I had to make a decision. Quotes ranged between $20.000. and $60,000. I kid you not. Same goes with a photog. You shop around or get recommendations from family and friends. Such an important decision requires a lot of thought and planning. So should you say something? Yes with a lot of thought and not be influenced by your own shortcomings. ( I mean that in the nicest way) cheers Brian

So who did you go with ? In similar situations I usually go with one of the middle quotes.

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Ok, but "expressions of displeasure (sic) ... refund, a reshoot, etc." Are no compensation for having a once-in-a-lifetime event ruined because the photographer was too egotistical to recognise that he/she wasn't ready for such responsibility. I understand your expectation that people hiring the said photographer need to do their homework first BUT many don't know enough about it to tell a good one from a bad one, and others are often too short of money to be particularly choosy. I just happen to think that the principle onus falls on the person advertising for hire skills they simply do not have! Fortunately, consumer protection laws seem to agree with that position. I've seen the same thing in other fields of endeavour, where the shyster simply goes out of business under one name and starts up again under another. The fact remains that most consumers are not qualified to judge the expertise of most professions. Do you really have any idea how good a doctor your doctor is, after all? We have registration bodies that attempt (and sometimes fail) to protect consumers in the building industry, law, medicine, etc. Nothing really protects a consumer from a dodgy photographer, unfortunately. It's up to all of us to minimise the impact they have for all of our sakes, or we'll be the used car salesmen of the new millennium.

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Yes, they do, and the appropriate place is as a second shooter for an experienced photographer, not playing with the memories of innocent people trying to start their lives together on a high note. Why is it that so many people think they don't need EXPERIENCE along with their learned skills, knowledge and equipment? You advocate getting that experience at the expense of others. I'm simply suggesting there are less damaging ways to get the experience they need. I would have thought that , as thinking, reasoning human beings we were a little better than the "survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, etc. etc."

Don't disagree with much of this . So are you suggesting compulsory registration of all wedding photographers? There is AIPP membership and they probably charge more. I still think some people will choose to go with cheaper , unregistered photographers. It's human nature.

[WhoDo]

Don't disagree with much of this . So are you suggesting compulsory registration of all wedding photographers? There is AIPP membership and they probably charge more. I still think some people will choose to go with cheaper , unregistered photographers. It's human nature.

No, registration doesn't guarantee quality unfortunately. All it does is offer some comfort that others have agreed the subject meets a minimum standard. My advice? Don't use any photographer for your wedding who doesn't have Professional Indemnity insurance. That should weed out the wannabe's from the already-are's. PI is expensive and most who don't know what they're doing won't go to the trouble or expense. Education is probably the biggest protection measure ... and that means educating the ill-informed on both sides of the equation as what are the real risks and responsibilities. Simply put, tell the wannabe not to look to start at the top but rather offer themselves as a 2nd shooter in a sort of apprenticeship until they know what is expected. JMHO of course.

PS. FWIW I'm in the process of trying to discourage overconfidence in one such new photographer right now. She has been approached to do a wedding and can't resist the temptation. I plan to hit her with the PI punch (among several others) this coming week - wedding is mid-February (oh, lord, Valentine's day weddings mean so much higher expectations ). Either she will get the insurance (and the second body, and the extra kit such as cards, etc.) and make nothing on the day or I'll wash my hands of giving her further advice on the subject. Either way, I will walk away feeling that I've tried to get her thinking straight.

[bricat]

[QUOTE=bcys1961;1270329]So who did you go with ? In similar situations I usually go with one of the middle quotes.

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Took the $30,000. option which worked out OK. Took $3,000. off when I said I would do the painting. Ahhh young and stupid.

[bitsnpieces]

Is this post about me? :P

I'm a fresh photographer who came out gunho and got slapped on with the 'advanced' skill level, and will be shooting my friend's wedding next week in Hamilton, New Zealand, for free but all expenses paid.

All my friend says is that, as long as you believe you can do it, we'll give you the opportunity. They know the risk, but they also know I'm okay enough, and if anything, there's got to be some good photos here and there, so they'll take it.

So it's a trust thing, and an opportunity thing. So with what other's have said so far, my go is also whether your friend has had a chance to be as a second photographer, tag along photographer, yet?
And I ask this not because I've necessarily done it, but because I'm living exactly what your concern is, new, and put into the field already. I personally believe I can do it, but definitely feel, extra practice would have been great.
My history so far are doing engagement photos for one friend, reception photos for another, and just a random guy taking photos at a friend's wedding - all free by the way, so nothing much in terms of real work.

So, if you do get a chance to talk to him, if you haven't already, just chat like normal. You notice his new service, see what he's done to prepare for this new venture, what he's ideas are, make suggestions like doing second photographer first, etc, and it'll come off more naturally.

[What I've currently been doing - is it enough?]
I've sent them a few photos of some recent photos that I've taken, to give them an idea of my style of photography, so make sure the future-wife will be happy and know what to expect, and have gone through the plan with my friend.
We'll spend a day before the wedding to physically go through it all, get an idea, practice shots, etc.
I'll have a chance to play with this camera so I know how to use it during the wedding, for when I want that 70-200mm, which I don't have yet myself unfortunately.
And I'll be bringing just about all of my accessories and gear, extra memory cards, batteries, AC converter for the car to charge in-between shots, laptop to offload images, etc
And this is my first time officially shooting a wedding, and also being the photographer too.
[Maybe not?]

[ameerat42]

From the sound of your post, Bits, I'd say this thread pointedly DOES NOT refer to you

[CandidTown]

I suspect that his wedding will go smoothly, he will deliver his images and the couple will be happy.
If he brings backup gear, for the unexpected, he will do just fine.

I think he is more brave than he is knowledgeable, but in wedding photography you need both.
I know good photographers who wouldn't dare charge for wedding photography as they are 'not good enough' in their mind.
In most cases they will never be good enough, but that has to do with them being scared of this considerable responsibility and not with their skill level.

The simple truth is... it is almost impossible to take completely unusable pictures with modern cameras.
This is not 1980s where you had to know your stuff and have confidence in your ability.
Today, you take a shot, chimp it; if its under or over-exposed, correct it.. then take another shot.
If that fails, change your settings to "P" mode and you're good.
"P" for Professional that is...

He will do fine because of another simple truth.
Wedding photography(or any photography) clients are not experienced photographers.
They will not scrutinise every pixel in their image, like we often do here in our forum, to see if its perfect.
They will see themselves and others in the pictures and they will be happy because most people can not tell a difference between a good enough image and a great image.
Unless he delivers very badly exposed or blurry images, they will think he's great...

It's kind of sad for those who strive for perfection in their photography, but i've seen enough of this happening to know that its true.